WEBVTT

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OK , um , our next speaker is no

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stranger to many in this audience . Uh ,

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Doctor Dawn Barry is an institution at

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DPAA . Um , she's worked as a

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researcher and a historian for more

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than 10 years , and I think she's

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spoken in front of this group probably

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most of those 10 years . Um , she's a

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staunch advocate for the families and a

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dedicated researcher . Today she serves

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as the chief of the research for the

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Korean War and Cold War in the

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Indo-Pacific Directorate . So I would

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like to introduce Don Berry .

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I'm on , can you guys hear me OK ? No ,

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OK , maybe we'll move the microphone up

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and you guys can tell me , is that

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better ? And even better , and even

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better , I , I don't know if it's

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possible to follow Mr . Chen . uh ,

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I , I really don't , uh , the director

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mentioned this . I was fortunate enough

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to be at the Korean War Veterans

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Association meeting last , uh , October .

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And I spoke to the group and then the

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next day Arnold Chen was there and I

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was completely blown away by his story

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by his message and all of the work that

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he's doing to remember a war that has

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impacted you so , so , so profoundly

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he is a a kind and empathetic person

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and I'm so grateful that you got to

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have the experience that I did last

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October . Um , I'm also notorious for

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wandering around this room , and this

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is the first time that I've ever had a

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lavalier . So if I start sounding

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strange , please , uh , make some sort

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of wild signals . Uh , I will try to be

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quieter and we'll , we'll see if that

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works OK . I also have a lot of notes

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in this book . I don't want to forget

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anything , so usually I like speaking

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completely . Now I have a click . This

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is the dangerous part . So most of you

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know that I'm a historian by training ,

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a bit of a Luddite . This is pretty

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good because there's a big green button

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that says go ahead and a red one that

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might mean backwards , but I can't

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promise that the slides are gonna go in

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the right direction . So

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I , I , our agency video starts with a

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question . Why keep searching ?

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Because no missing American service

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member should be left behind . For

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all of you in this room , you have

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lived with this search for your

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lifetimes , and even if you're new to

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this mission and this is your first

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meeting , your families have lived with

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this for more than 70 years . For the

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employees and staff of the defense POW

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MIA accounting agency , this is not a

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job . This is an honor ,

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this is a vocation and this has become

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all of our missions to continue the

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work that people have done generations

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before us . What I'm gonna be talking

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about today is not my story .

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But it's building on the work of all of

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the people who have come before me ,

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the researchers who have worked for

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decades to try to get you answers and

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also incorporated the information that

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you've given to us . I'm also

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gonna try not to be emotional , but

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given that I was just crying and I'm on

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the verge of tears right now , please

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forgive me when I undoubtedly will

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start crying in a couple of minutes .

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So when I came to this agency , a

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colleague told me she kinda looked me

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in the eye . I moved from England ,

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never having been to Hawaii um never

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having really been in the Pacific aside

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from working in China , and she sat me

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down on my first day and she said

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people who come here either come for .

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A year , 5 years or for life ,

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so I already had an introduction . I've

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now been here for over 10 years , so I ,

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I guess I'm a lifer and it's my

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absolute honor to be able to tell you a

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little bit about something that the

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director mentioned yesterday . So the

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director talked a little bit about

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Roland Lee Bowser .

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I've sat down with a lot of families

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over the years including many people in

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this room . And Roland

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Bowser was captured at Unsan in

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November of 1950 . He later became a

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POW at Camp 5 . But Roland

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Bowser was more than his circumstances

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of loss . Roland Bowser was a son ,

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Roland Browser was a brother , and

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Roland Bowser was an uncle . And

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Roland Bowser's family , very large

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family , never gave up hope . That

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his remains would be returned home .

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And neither did we . So the story that

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I wanna tell you a little bit about is

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the research part that went into

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helping to identify Roland Bowser . Oh ,

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that just got a little bit loud .

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So some of you might not know this , uh ,

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every time I sit down with you I take

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notes uh I've talked about before that

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I have pictures that many of you have

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given me up in my office , even if you

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don't know me , if I've worked on your

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loved one and I have a picture of them ,

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they're in my office and I met some

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people who that was the case of last

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year . I also keep every case summary

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that I do with every family and I write

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notes . So I met the Bowser family

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quite some time ago and several times ,

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but this is one from Birmingham ,

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Alabama where I said Sister Marjorie ,

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brother-in-law Robert , brother Paul ,

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sister-in-law Joyce , niece and niece

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Deborah and Nancy , very nice family

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need to work harder to me

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note to self , do more .

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So for those of you who don't know ,

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Camp 5 . Was the largest permanent

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camp on the Yalu River , so the largest

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and first POW camp in North Korea .

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Um , there are a number of Camp 5

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families here , and I've met with most

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of you . Um , it was a very , very

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challenging place to be . Between it

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was established in 1951 in January and

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between the early months of 1951 ,

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50% of the people who entered the camp

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never left , including Roland Bowser .

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When we started researching Roland

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Bowser and other casualties from Camp 5 ,

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we're very , very fortunate to have

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quite a bit of information . So this is

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where historians get excited . Uh , you

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can see that I have paper and for many

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of you have seen me running around the

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hallways , I usually have a giant .

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Case I am not leaving or moving that is

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usually paper that bringing to CSRs ,

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so um sorry and uh you're welcome for

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all of the random documents that I've

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given you over the years . So what we

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see here , I don't know if I have a

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little . Oh , I better not put my arm

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up . We'll stay to the center . What we

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see here on the far left side is the

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official and unofficial POW list from

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the Korean War , and what's outlined in

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red is Roland Bowser . We have all

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kinds of information about POWs and

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there's some cases we don't have very

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much information , but for Camp 5 we

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have more . We have unit records we

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have reports from the Chinese we have

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these American records and then we also

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have witness testimonies that Phil

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talked a little bit about yesterday so

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witness testimonies from after the war

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and then the work that Phil O'Brien has

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done as well . This map for those Camp

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5 families who have seen this is

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something that probably all of you have

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seen before . There's several

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indications of where different

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cemeteries were . And also there's a

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notation that says where remains may

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have washed away .

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Now we're now this is where I have to

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calm down a little bit because for

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those of you who've heard me talk about

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before this is uh another little bit of

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information so after the war we have

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never been able to go back to Camp 5

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even though we've asked in the past for

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a bunch of different reasons . But

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after the war we received

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4,219 sets of remains from the North

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Koreans and about 2900 of those were

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believed to be Americans . 416 of

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those were unable to be identified

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after the war , including

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X14343 .

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Who happened to have come back as

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Roland Bowser . And he wasn't able to

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be identified at the time , so some

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people sometimes ask , you know , how

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accurate were those IDs at Kokura ?

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I'll leave some of it to the , uh ,

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anthropologists , but from a historical

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perspective and history of science

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perspective , I can say quite a lot of

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work went into identifications and the

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anthropologists at CIU Kakura Japan

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were incredibly conservative . So if

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there was a possibility that that .

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Individual was not the person that it

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could have been because he was 18 to 24

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had virgin dentition , so teeth without

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a lot of work hadn't had any major

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injuries . It's , it's entirely

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possible that they didn't identify him

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or if something didn't match they had

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records for teeth that didn't

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necessarily match what we thought his

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what the teeth and the remains were

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they would have said uh unable to

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identify and that was the case of 14343 .

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The historian in me really wants to ask

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if anyone has questions , but I know

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that's an end of the day thing . So . I

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want to give a shout out to a number of

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people , so . Since

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around the year 2000 . A number of

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people and even prior to that . People

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had been working on Camp 4 Camp 5

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remains . We had someone named Ron

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Broward who was a Marine . He was

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injured at Horseshoe Hill and lost

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several of his close friends , some of

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whom had never been recovered , and he

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was one of the people who started work

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on the Korean War unknowns and led to

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some of the earliest disinterments from

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the National Memorial Cemetery of the

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Pacific . And just because we said we

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talk about paper a lot , this is my

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copy of some of the work that Ron

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Brower did from the Kakura binder and

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if you can see it is completely insane .

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I went through every single line . I

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won't do that again . Keep it away from

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the microphone every single line of

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what he did so I could understand

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everything that had happened before me .

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We also heard from Phil O'Brien . So

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Phil O'Brien at the time , so Ron

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Broward volunteered for JPAC and had a

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tremendous impact in Punchbowl Unknowns .

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He is a major driving force , but why

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we had , oh gosh , why we had any

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Punchbowl unknowns should stick with

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the microphone . Phil O'Brien , who we

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talked about yesterday . Did something

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we lovingly refer to as Phil's

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folios , which are his beautiful notes

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about essentially every POW from the

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Korean War written in a cryptic script

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that one needs probably a couple of

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PhDs to be able to decode , but here's

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one of my copies of about 20 volumes of

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Phil's folios . When I searched my

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computer , there were

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363 documents on

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my computer alone , relating to Ron

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Broward . 13 different historians

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had worked on this case , including

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Doctor Mike Dolsky , who wrote a

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disinterment memo in 2013 to

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disinter and hopefully identify

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X14343 .

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However , at the time we had been doing

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disinterments for a little over a

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decade . And beyond the challenges of

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having embalming powder and large

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numbers of missing service members from

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Camp 5 in particular because it was the

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biggest camp with very , very high

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casualty rates , there was something

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else going on with Camp 5 when we did

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the disinterments it was very , very ,

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very hard to make identifications at

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the time that I came to start working

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on Camp 5 we had completely paused all

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disinterments on Camp 5 . I was lucky

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enough to work with 2 forensic

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anthropologists to start digging into

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why camp 5 remains couldn't be

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identified . At the time ,

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punchbowl unknowns in general were

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treated as single sets of remains so

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when they were disinterred , we thought

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in general that most of those remains

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were one individual and in most cases ,

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not counting camp 5 , they were .

14:24.070 --> 14:26.440
So I looked at it from a historical

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perspective . Usually when we as

14:28.369 --> 14:30.202
historians approach this type of

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research , you hear about military

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historians doing order of battle and

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unit history and you guys have seen

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that in a lot of your case summaries we

14:38.662 --> 14:40.773
try to think about what's a different

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way that we can think about Camp 5 so

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what we did was work backwards from the

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information that we had so . Where the

14:49.150 --> 14:51.150
remains were processed and how they

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were processed , how we got them back ,

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so all of the remains we have from

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North Korea with the exception of our

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JRRO recoveries which didn't include

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Camp 5 , we did not recover ourselves .

15:04.340 --> 15:06.451
And I'll talk a little bit more about

15:06.451 --> 15:09.119
that in a second . The other piece

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there is that .

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There's interesting things that

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happened environmentally with Camp 5 ,

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so thinking about where people were

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buried and I actually had a very , um ,

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one might say . Animated conversation

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with the Camp 5 family in the hall . 05

15:33.450 --> 15:37.429
minutes , hm . All right , we are

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gonna speed it up to a super ,

15:41.299 --> 15:44.979
super speed . What I will say is what

15:44.979 --> 15:47.710
we discovered , 00 , no , there we go .

15:47.780 --> 15:50.002
We knew it was gonna happen this year .

15:51.080 --> 15:54.239
What we discovered This is the Kakura

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binder on the left side . The names are

15:56.461 --> 15:58.628
all alphabetical , which you've talked

15:58.628 --> 16:00.850
about if you've been to a family member

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update , you can see Bowser's name and

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then again on the right hand side you

16:05.128 --> 16:07.350
can see Bowser written over in pencil .

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And what we found when we thought that

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they were individual sets of remains ,

16:14.266 --> 16:16.739
the historical evidence showed that

16:16.739 --> 16:19.099
there is potential commingling . So

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prior to working on Korea , I worked on

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Cabanawan and POW camps with mass

16:24.580 --> 16:26.747
graves , and there was evidence in the

16:26.747 --> 16:29.820
historical records that there were also

16:29.820 --> 16:32.700
group burials at Camp 5 and what that

16:32.700 --> 16:34.533
meant that there was potentially

16:34.533 --> 16:37.250
commingling . At the same time , the

16:37.250 --> 16:39.361
forensic anthropologist that I worked

16:39.361 --> 16:43.239
with had the very first time multiple

16:43.239 --> 16:45.530
FRS sequences to come back from a

16:45.530 --> 16:47.697
single set of remains . So there's one

16:47.697 --> 16:49.474
set of remains came back with 3

16:49.474 --> 16:52.119
sequences from Camp 5 that meant that

16:52.130 --> 16:54.489
that one set of remains was actually 3

16:54.489 --> 16:56.739
individuals . So that was the

16:56.739 --> 16:59.739
historical and the scientific evidence

16:59.739 --> 17:01.929
coming together to let us think about

17:01.929 --> 17:04.099
this in a new way when we talk about

17:04.099 --> 17:06.210
the Korean War disinterment plan when

17:06.210 --> 17:09.489
we talk about the 652 , there's sorry ,

17:09.699 --> 17:12.140
there's lots of reasons why we can do

17:12.140 --> 17:14.489
this , but part of it is the work

17:14.489 --> 17:16.545
between historians and researchers .

17:16.560 --> 17:18.949
And forensic anthropologists that gave

17:18.949 --> 17:21.390
us the evidence to make an argument to

17:21.390 --> 17:24.750
the DOD to apply for and get

17:24.750 --> 17:27.390
approval for the disinterment of

17:27.390 --> 17:30.949
652 sets of remains , including those

17:30.949 --> 17:33.349
from Camp 5 and what you see in red up

17:33.349 --> 17:37.109
on the board is X 14343 .

17:38.410 --> 17:40.810
Which we talked about earlier . I'm

17:40.810 --> 17:43.032
just gonna whip through this , but what

17:43.032 --> 17:45.489
I wanna tell you is all of the work we

17:45.489 --> 17:48.449
did was built on decades of work from

17:48.449 --> 17:50.689
previous researchers and analysts like

17:50.689 --> 17:52.578
Phil O'Brien , who you heard from

17:52.578 --> 17:54.411
yesterday , like our veteran Ron

17:54.411 --> 17:57.810
Broward , like Mike Dolsky . Etc . and

17:57.810 --> 17:59.921
Dan Boffman for those of you who know

17:59.921 --> 18:01.866
him what we're doing right now for

18:01.866 --> 18:04.170
North Korea or reevaluating everything

18:04.170 --> 18:06.569
we did for the JROs we're looking back

18:06.569 --> 18:09.050
at historical research and we're also

18:09.050 --> 18:11.650
seeing where the identifications are

18:11.650 --> 18:14.040
coming for from North Korea . So when

18:14.040 --> 18:16.096
hopefully we get to go back to North

18:16.096 --> 18:18.410
Korea we are as ready as possible to be

18:18.410 --> 18:20.699
able to do operations . That's our

18:20.699 --> 18:23.099
North Korea story . DMZ you might have

18:23.099 --> 18:25.210
heard from the director that we might

18:25.210 --> 18:27.432
be getting back in or we won't be going

18:27.432 --> 18:29.655
back in , but Macri might be going back

18:29.655 --> 18:31.710
into the DMZ relatively quickly . We

18:31.710 --> 18:33.877
have a large scale research project to

18:33.877 --> 18:35.932
increase our DMZ efforts which we're

18:35.932 --> 18:38.410
very excited about for South Korea ,

18:38.459 --> 18:40.459
and I know there's several families

18:40.459 --> 18:42.626
where this applies , we are leaving no

18:42.626 --> 18:45.020
stone left unturned .

18:46.680 --> 18:48.680
What that means is we're going back

18:48.680 --> 18:50.810
over every mission we've done , every

18:50.810 --> 18:53.410
lead we have every case in South Korea

18:53.410 --> 18:55.577
to see if there's anything else we can

18:55.577 --> 18:59.119
do for you . And we're also maximizing

18:59.119 --> 19:02.410
all opportunities this year we had a

19:02.410 --> 19:04.521
couple of extra days because we had a

19:04.521 --> 19:07.199
site closure and we also had a few too

19:07.199 --> 19:09.849
many people on a mission . So what we

19:09.849 --> 19:12.650
ended up doing was make an extra IT

19:12.650 --> 19:15.170
light that helped us investigate two

19:15.170 --> 19:17.290
additional sites . If we have extra

19:17.290 --> 19:19.512
time , our team is not wandering around

19:19.512 --> 19:21.568
Korea . They're having extra time in

19:21.568 --> 19:23.849
the archives . Every second that we can

19:23.849 --> 19:27.390
work for you , we are doing it . We're

19:27.390 --> 19:29.446
building capability and capacity and

19:29.446 --> 19:32.670
underwater activities and in China we

19:32.670 --> 19:34.750
have had an archival exchange in

19:34.750 --> 19:36.861
Beijing which helped us with our Cold

19:36.861 --> 19:40.640
War cases also . We

19:40.640 --> 19:43.040
wrote an MOU and drafted it while we

19:43.040 --> 19:45.096
were in China which was signed later

19:45.096 --> 19:46.873
that year that allowed us to do

19:46.873 --> 19:49.349
activities relating to the Korean War .

19:50.329 --> 19:53.719
Which is happening right now . For Cold

19:53.719 --> 19:56.969
War families , we are also asking for

19:56.969 --> 19:59.599
access to museums to have any

19:59.599 --> 20:02.729
information about your cases . And

20:02.729 --> 20:04.959
we're pushing as hard as we can to get

20:04.959 --> 20:07.070
answers for you as much as possible .

20:10.599 --> 20:13.050
So yesterday , X

20:13.050 --> 20:14.930
14343 .

20:18.420 --> 20:20.587
Well , I'll say this quickly because I

20:20.587 --> 20:22.698
see Jennifer on the side , that'll be

20:22.698 --> 20:24.753
very fast in my last sentence . I've

20:24.753 --> 20:26.976
told you guys before that when I did my

20:26.976 --> 20:28.809
citizenship interview I said the

20:28.809 --> 20:30.864
greatest thing that I can do with my

20:30.864 --> 20:33.087
life is to help give someone their name

20:33.087 --> 20:36.140
back and an unknown in the punch bowl

20:36.390 --> 20:40.099
that started as X14343

20:40.390 --> 20:44.229
with 25 years of research is

20:44.229 --> 20:47.949
now Roland Bowser who is

20:47.949 --> 20:50.189
buried at the Arlington National

20:50.189 --> 20:52.540
Cemetery yesterday .

21:02.719 --> 21:04.941
I hope that next year we have even more

21:04.941 --> 21:07.650
answers for you . This year our team

21:07.959 --> 21:10.280
wrote more than 50 historical reports

21:10.280 --> 21:12.391
and you're gonna hear more about that

21:12.391 --> 21:14.479
from Jenny Jin . I'm so honored and

21:14.479 --> 21:16.701
grateful to be a part of this mission ,

21:16.800 --> 21:19.359
and I just wanna thank you so much for

21:19.359 --> 21:21.526
letting me speak today . We appreciate

21:21.526 --> 21:21.239
you .

21:41.599 --> 21:44.130
To Juon was an institution in DPAA .

21:45.560 --> 21:49.329
So for 10 years two of DPAA's

21:49.329 --> 21:51.660
predecessor organizations had access to

21:51.660 --> 21:54.319
North Korea to conduct operations .

21:54.569 --> 21:56.770
Unfortunately , as you all have heard

21:56.770 --> 21:59.329
from uh different people these last two

21:59.329 --> 22:03.020
days , um , that access ended in 2005 ,

22:03.369 --> 22:05.258
and although there have been many

22:05.258 --> 22:07.313
attempts to re-engage with the North

22:07.313 --> 22:09.410
Koreans , uh , we have not had any

22:09.410 --> 22:11.632
communications with them since March of

22:11.632 --> 22:15.520
2019 . Today we have 3 alumni

22:15.520 --> 22:18.359
from Sill High and JPAC , Doctor Brad

22:18.359 --> 22:21.349
Adams , a forensic anthropologist , Mr .

22:21.359 --> 22:24.599
Chris Tarrant , uh , who served as the

22:24.599 --> 22:27.319
team leader , and Mr . Tom Woods , who

22:27.319 --> 22:29.959
served as a team sergeant . These 3

22:29.959 --> 22:32.260
gentlemen each participated in multiple

22:32.260 --> 22:34.410
missions into North Korea . They're

22:34.410 --> 22:36.577
gonna share their experiences with you

22:36.577 --> 22:38.243
today , and our panel will be

22:38.243 --> 22:40.650
facilitated by Doctor Franklin Damon ,

22:40.810 --> 22:43.010
laboratory director of our Of

22:43.010 --> 22:45.489
laboratory in Nebraska , who also

22:45.489 --> 22:47.920
participated on multiple joint recovery

22:47.920 --> 22:50.689
operations . So Franklin and Phyllis ,

22:51.130 --> 22:52.130
come on up .

23:21.030 --> 23:23.141
Good morning . Good morning . Can you

23:23.141 --> 23:24.974
guys hear me OK ? Is this coming

23:24.974 --> 23:24.530
through ?

23:28.619 --> 23:32.560
Mic check , we good ? All right ,

23:32.770 --> 23:34.881
no , not good , a little closer to my

23:34.881 --> 23:38.170
mouth . I'll try not to swallow it .

23:40.290 --> 23:42.512
Well , good morning everybody and thank

23:42.512 --> 23:44.679
you Jennifer for the introduction . My

23:44.679 --> 23:46.957
name is Franklin Damon . Uh , I'm here ,

23:46.957 --> 23:48.901
um , uh , as you mentioned with uh

23:48.901 --> 23:48.800
three alumni of the agency , but before

23:48.800 --> 23:51.022
we get into it , I'll just give a quick

23:51.022 --> 23:53.133
overview of some of the contexts as I

23:53.133 --> 23:55.356
understand , about 30 to 40% of you are

23:55.356 --> 23:58.349
new , uh , here , uh , this year , and ,

23:58.520 --> 24:00.599
uh , as Jennifer said , operations ,

24:00.790 --> 24:02.989
joint recovery operations , uh , ended

24:02.989 --> 24:06.489
in 2005 . But they began , it was a 9

24:06.489 --> 24:09.959
year period starting in 1996 ,

24:10.369 --> 24:12.290
shortly after the turnover of the

24:12.290 --> 24:15.689
Korean 208 or known as the K208 , a

24:15.689 --> 24:19.329
unilateral turnover of 208 boxes of of

24:19.329 --> 24:21.770
remains , uh , we quickly ensued with

24:21.770 --> 24:24.930
some US negotiations with North Koreans

24:24.930 --> 24:27.560
to gain access to uh create

24:27.560 --> 24:31.290
recovery investigation operations in

24:31.290 --> 24:33.530
North Korea . Um ,

24:35.709 --> 24:39.349
The 9 years of effort today has

24:39.349 --> 24:42.709
produced 100 , just under 200 , and

24:42.709 --> 24:46.219
it's 196 individual identifications

24:46.589 --> 24:48.645
from the remains that were recovered

24:48.645 --> 24:50.739
during these , uh , JRO or joint

24:50.739 --> 24:54.109
recovery operations . And uh to kick

24:54.109 --> 24:56.276
things off , I'd actually just like to

24:56.276 --> 24:58.165
ask the the panel members here to

24:58.165 --> 25:00.276
introduce themselves , tell you about

25:00.276 --> 25:02.276
when they were with our predecessor

25:02.276 --> 25:02.020
agencies , when were they in Korea ,

25:02.569 --> 25:04.829
and what role did they perform on the

25:04.829 --> 25:07.339
teams . Brad , let's start with you .

25:07.670 --> 25:08.020
OK .

26:02.800 --> 26:04.800
Hey , good morning everyone . Chris

26:04.800 --> 26:07.022
Tarrant , uh , again , uh , honored and

26:07.022 --> 26:09.300
humbled to , uh , have been invited to ,

26:09.300 --> 26:11.411
to come share my experiences with you

26:11.411 --> 26:13.633
all . Thank you for having me . Um , my

26:13.633 --> 26:15.856
name's Chris Tarrant , and I was , uh ,

26:15.856 --> 26:17.967
assigned to Sell High and JPAC , uh ,

26:17.967 --> 26:20.189
during the transition time from 2002 to

26:20.189 --> 26:23.680
2005 . Um , I went back , uh , to

26:23.680 --> 26:27.469
JPAC in 2012 and was a , uh , uh ,

26:27.479 --> 26:29.701
investigative team leader , uh , in the

26:29.701 --> 26:31.701
research and analysis section for a

26:31.701 --> 26:33.868
couple more years after that . Um , my

26:33.868 --> 26:36.719
role in , uh , in the North Korean JROs

26:36.719 --> 26:38.775
was a team leader , and I did , uh ,

26:38.775 --> 26:41.319
two missions , uh , in , in North Korea

26:41.400 --> 26:43.400
specifically up in the , the Chosen

26:43.400 --> 26:44.400
reservoir area .

27:14.390 --> 27:15.390
Yeah , just bring

27:19.609 --> 27:22.140
Thank you guys . Um , first question is ,

27:22.930 --> 27:25.569
Chris , as a team leader , um , you

27:25.569 --> 27:27.513
have to do a lot of administrative

27:27.513 --> 27:29.736
organizational kinds of tasks , uh , in

27:29.736 --> 27:31.902
order to prepare the team , uh , to go

27:31.902 --> 27:34.420
out into the field . What were you ,

27:34.500 --> 27:36.611
what thoughts were going through your

27:36.611 --> 27:38.722
mind when you were told that you were

27:38.722 --> 27:40.778
gonna be leading a team of Americans

27:40.778 --> 27:43.250
into North Korea ? Thanks , thanks

27:43.250 --> 27:46.989
Franklin . um I was so I previously I

27:46.989 --> 27:50.170
had done a couple of recovery and uh

27:50.170 --> 27:52.392
investigative missions in South Korea .

27:52.392 --> 27:55.609
Um so uh part of the prep was getting

27:55.609 --> 27:57.250
ready and , and getting uh

27:57.250 --> 27:59.250
indoctrinated into kind of what was

27:59.250 --> 28:01.849
going on back in the 50s um during the

28:01.849 --> 28:05.650
conflict . Um I was excited , uh you

28:05.650 --> 28:08.050
know , North Korea is in isolation in

28:08.050 --> 28:10.859
this country . And uh does not have a

28:10.859 --> 28:13.026
lot of access and there's not a lot of

28:13.026 --> 28:15.209
opportunities for Americans to go um

28:15.209 --> 28:17.153
and particularly you know just the

28:17.153 --> 28:19.619
mission in general of of JPAC to

28:19.619 --> 28:22.410
recover , uh , you know , US servicemen

28:22.410 --> 28:25.030
who uh were unaccounted for , uh ,

28:25.099 --> 28:29.060
again I was just happy and excited and

28:29.060 --> 28:31.060
ready to , to get out there and get

28:31.060 --> 28:33.227
after it . And as a team leader you're

28:33.227 --> 28:35.227
03 , right ? Air Force captain , is

28:35.227 --> 28:37.410
that right ? Yep , I was uh I was an

28:37.410 --> 28:39.949
Air Force captain and , uh , the , the

28:39.949 --> 28:41.750
role of the team leader uh like

28:41.750 --> 28:44.229
Franklin alluded to is to coordinate

28:44.229 --> 28:46.451
all the logistics and the safety of the

28:46.451 --> 28:49.329
team , uh , inbound and outbound of the

28:49.329 --> 28:51.469
countries that we go into , um , and

28:51.469 --> 28:53.750
once we're on site then leadership kind

28:53.750 --> 28:55.670
of shifts to the forensic

28:55.670 --> 28:57.859
anthropologists to lead the scientific

28:57.859 --> 28:59.803
aspect and the recovery , uh , the

28:59.803 --> 29:02.709
actual recovery mission . Brad or or

29:02.709 --> 29:05.869
Woody , you got any uh uh anecdotes on

29:05.869 --> 29:08.036
kind of preparation and thinking about

29:08.036 --> 29:10.147
going into North Korea ? I think both

29:10.147 --> 29:12.480
of you are already married at that time ,

29:12.480 --> 29:14.702
nervous family conversations going on .

29:14.702 --> 29:15.702
I mean for me .

29:18.420 --> 29:20.530
Ide North Korea , it was sort of

29:20.530 --> 29:22.939
exciting just to see something that

29:24.119 --> 29:26.359
Nobody from the , from the US really

29:26.359 --> 29:28.581
has the opportunity to see , to see the

29:28.581 --> 29:30.839
weirdness of it and see it firsthand

29:31.040 --> 29:33.479
and to go there . So I , I volunteered

29:33.479 --> 29:37.310
early on to go like . A year , I would

29:37.310 --> 29:39.550
have been , was hired in '97 .

29:40.420 --> 29:42.531
Volunteer to go to North Korea in '98

29:42.531 --> 29:44.849
because it was like . Who else is gonna

29:44.849 --> 29:46.627
get the opportunity to see that

29:46.627 --> 29:48.729
firsthand and participate . So , you

29:48.729 --> 29:50.840
know , as an anthropologist and , you

29:50.840 --> 29:53.062
know , interested in different cultures

29:53.062 --> 29:52.810
and things , I was .

30:01.339 --> 30:03.339
One of the one of the things that I

30:03.339 --> 30:05.760
would typically do um not just for

30:05.760 --> 30:07.982
North Korea but for all the other areas

30:07.982 --> 30:10.160
that that I did recoveries in was to

30:10.160 --> 30:12.680
try and get historical accounts like ,

30:12.719 --> 30:15.719
you know , just regular books um of

30:15.719 --> 30:18.420
what the actual situations were for the

30:18.420 --> 30:20.642
areas that we're gonna do recoveries in

30:20.642 --> 30:22.587
so . Two of the , the books that I

30:22.587 --> 30:25.369
remember distinctly um that I was , uh ,

30:25.380 --> 30:27.491
that I read prior to going into North

30:27.491 --> 30:29.859
Korea was how to how to negotiate with

30:29.859 --> 30:32.430
North Korea and the answer is Yeah ,

30:32.520 --> 30:34.520
there's no typically no negotiation

30:34.520 --> 30:36.959
with North North Korea , um , and then

30:36.959 --> 30:39.160
the other one was breakout which was

30:39.160 --> 30:41.609
essentially the um the the Chosen

30:41.609 --> 30:43.920
reservoir , uh , conflict and battle up

30:43.920 --> 30:46.198
there and what happened and , and , uh ,

30:46.198 --> 30:48.531
you know , as I'm sure you all are very ,

30:48.531 --> 30:50.680
very familiar with but just the the

30:50.680 --> 30:53.000
overall history , the movements of of

30:53.000 --> 30:55.359
the soldiers , uh , you know , in in to .

30:55.505 --> 30:57.616
Help aid and and where we may be able

30:57.616 --> 30:59.838
to look and and find and the last thing

30:59.838 --> 31:02.214
um that was extremely helpful was I was

31:02.214 --> 31:04.334
still there with uh with other people

31:04.334 --> 31:06.501
who had you know I was there with Brad

31:06.501 --> 31:08.723
um who had been to North Korea prior to

31:08.723 --> 31:10.974
that so just picking their brain uh on

31:10.974 --> 31:13.814
what their experiences were , uh , and

31:13.814 --> 31:16.574
you know what to pack uh what how was

31:16.574 --> 31:18.741
it over there ? How were you treated ,

31:18.741 --> 31:21.500
um . And trying to get that anecdotal

31:21.589 --> 31:23.811
uh experience prior to going in there .

31:24.550 --> 31:26.828
And so jumping ahead a little bit , um .

31:27.390 --> 31:30.469
You know , late 90s , early 2000s ,

31:30.500 --> 31:32.670
it's not exactly a tourist destination

31:32.670 --> 31:34.670
for a lot of Americans . There's no

31:34.670 --> 31:36.837
direct United flight , you know , from

31:36.837 --> 31:39.003
Honolulu into Pyongyang . Uh , Chris ,

31:39.003 --> 31:41.170
organizing these movements , tell us a

31:41.170 --> 31:43.392
little bit about how that , uh , how it

31:43.392 --> 31:45.790
would work out . Yeah , so the first

31:45.790 --> 31:47.957
thing that we had to do was coordinate

31:47.957 --> 31:50.012
so we would , we would go in through

31:50.012 --> 31:52.012
China . uh , we flew in and spent a

31:52.012 --> 31:54.420
couple of days in Beijing and then flew

31:54.709 --> 31:57.829
on the one star , uh , rated state

31:57.829 --> 32:01.270
sponsored Airoro , uh , owned by North

32:01.270 --> 32:03.510
Korea , uh , from Beijing into

32:03.510 --> 32:05.630
Pyongyang and so the part of the

32:05.630 --> 32:08.189
logistics of that was obtaining the uh .

32:08.560 --> 32:12.400
The visas for uh for China and then

32:12.400 --> 32:14.640
coordinating how we're gonna get visas

32:14.640 --> 32:17.329
for North Korea , so . I'm sure Brad

32:17.329 --> 32:20.089
and Woody can can uh give a little more

32:20.089 --> 32:23.410
detail , but we would we would send all

32:23.410 --> 32:26.810
of our passports to California for the

32:26.810 --> 32:29.449
Chinese embassy to stamp for entry into

32:29.449 --> 32:32.410
China and then when we're in China we

32:32.410 --> 32:34.632
were coordinating with the North Korean

32:34.632 --> 32:36.799
embassy to get the actual North Korean

32:36.799 --> 32:39.849
visas to fly into uh to Pyongyang .

32:40.270 --> 32:43.109
Um , and then , so typically when you

32:43.109 --> 32:45.387
travel internationally you get a stamp ,

32:45.387 --> 32:47.498
right ? So there's no stamps in North

32:47.498 --> 32:49.387
Korea because they don't want any

32:49.387 --> 32:51.720
record of you being in there . So their ,

32:51.720 --> 32:53.831
their visa is a little piece of paper

32:53.831 --> 32:56.053
that they slide into your visa and when

32:56.053 --> 32:58.165
you exit the country they take it out

32:58.165 --> 33:00.442
so it's like you were never there . Um ,

33:00.442 --> 33:02.331
and so it's , you know , they had

33:02.331 --> 33:05.119
everything nailed down , extremely , uh ,

33:05.160 --> 33:07.760
detail oriented with , you know , how

33:07.760 --> 33:09.760
they were covering their tracks and

33:09.760 --> 33:11.927
shielding the rest of the North Korean

33:11.927 --> 33:13.927
population from all these Americans

33:13.927 --> 33:15.927
that are coming into the country so

33:15.927 --> 33:18.149
everything again very scripted , uh , I

33:18.149 --> 33:20.204
don't wanna jump , jump down but you

33:20.204 --> 33:22.427
know the , the way we took uh to get to

33:22.427 --> 33:24.538
the Chosen reservoir was about 3 days

33:24.538 --> 33:26.760
and we're going straight west and we're

33:26.760 --> 33:28.982
going . Uh , straight north and then or

33:28.982 --> 33:31.093
or straight east rather then straight

33:31.093 --> 33:33.149
north and then straight west over to

33:33.149 --> 33:35.316
the , the , uh , the chosen , the most

33:35.316 --> 33:37.482
indirect route you could possibly take

33:37.482 --> 33:39.649
and part of that was to shield us from

33:39.649 --> 33:41.871
some of their military installations so

33:41.871 --> 33:44.093
we could not gather intelligence , uh .

33:44.093 --> 33:46.260
Um , and , and the other part was they

33:46.260 --> 33:48.260
didn't want the population at large

33:48.260 --> 33:50.316
seeing that that they were traveling

33:50.316 --> 33:52.371
with Americans , uh , and I , I know

33:52.371 --> 33:54.371
we're gonna talk about that in , in

33:54.371 --> 33:56.427
just a second , so I won't , I won't

33:56.427 --> 33:56.334
spoil it , but , uh , that was , that's

33:56.334 --> 33:58.501
a little taste of , of how it was kind

33:58.501 --> 34:00.723
of getting into the country . What what

34:00.723 --> 34:04.599
are you talking about the Yeah . Yeah

34:04.599 --> 34:06.655
you said you were , you were excited

34:06.655 --> 34:08.821
about going in , still excited on that

34:08.821 --> 34:11.590
flight in ? What , what , what , what

34:11.590 --> 34:13.757
do you tell a little bit about the Air

34:13.757 --> 34:17.239
Correo airline . So coming into North

34:17.239 --> 34:20.540
Korea . Chris alluded to is this

34:20.540 --> 34:23.219
airplane was , you know , it's nothing

34:23.219 --> 34:25.275
like we would ever imagine right now

34:25.275 --> 34:28.550
that we fly on . Then they had covered

34:28.550 --> 34:31.260
inside it was , you know . 40s , 50s

34:31.389 --> 34:35.118
and uh . Deck decor and uh

34:35.118 --> 34:37.799
so you're flying to North Korea , the

34:37.799 --> 34:41.659
plane lands and you see um . The

34:41.659 --> 34:43.881
North Korean officials that are running

34:43.881 --> 34:45.881
everything , they run out with this

34:45.881 --> 34:48.103
vehicle and they're spraying the brakes

34:48.103 --> 34:50.326
down with water hose to try to stop the

34:50.326 --> 34:52.689
fires . And this is , this is no joke .

34:54.169 --> 34:56.336
I experienced this 3 times coming into

34:56.336 --> 34:58.447
that country and , uh , you know , so

34:58.447 --> 35:00.447
you land and they're doing that and

35:00.447 --> 35:02.649
they , they scare you off the uh uh

35:02.649 --> 35:06.010
airplane and uh trying to hide you from

35:06.010 --> 35:08.010
everything and they load you up and

35:08.010 --> 35:09.899
they do inspections and they take

35:09.899 --> 35:12.066
everything they can away from you that

35:12.066 --> 35:11.290
they don't want you to have in the

35:11.290 --> 35:14.620
country and They rush you to the hotel

35:14.620 --> 35:16.842
and then that's where we stay for a few

35:16.842 --> 35:19.064
days before we get ready to move to our

35:19.064 --> 35:22.520
locations . operation You know , a lot

35:22.520 --> 35:24.576
of the times when we go into country

35:24.576 --> 35:26.409
one of the first things we do is

35:26.409 --> 35:28.464
exchange money . uh , that there was

35:28.464 --> 35:30.298
there any kind of uh how did the

35:30.298 --> 35:32.353
currency work , you know , did you ,

35:32.353 --> 35:34.353
did they . We had , uh , they would

35:34.353 --> 35:36.353
prefer American dollars , so , uh ,

35:36.353 --> 35:38.520
that was a lot of times that that that

35:38.520 --> 35:40.687
would be the preferred form of payment

35:40.687 --> 35:42.742
we also if we went to , you know , a

35:42.742 --> 35:44.964
lot of times we were out like at a base

35:44.964 --> 35:47.131
camp secluded , but on weekends and in

35:47.131 --> 35:49.020
and out of the country we stay at

35:49.020 --> 35:51.310
hotels and I always like to . Just

35:51.310 --> 35:53.629
collect stuff , so I would buy like

35:54.030 --> 35:56.310
North Korean stamps and propaganda

35:56.310 --> 35:58.310
books and anything I could get just

35:58.310 --> 36:00.550
because it was so weird and and uh and

36:00.550 --> 36:02.949
that I would have to sometimes use like

36:02.949 --> 36:04.949
North Korean dollars , but they had

36:04.949 --> 36:07.171
different money for tourists and it was

36:07.171 --> 36:09.260
like this little tiny like monopoly

36:09.260 --> 36:11.427
bills that we would have to use and it

36:11.427 --> 36:13.929
had some ridiculous exchange . For one

36:13.929 --> 36:16.096
or something , but , um , but then the

36:16.096 --> 36:18.207
like the North Koreans themselves had

36:18.207 --> 36:20.262
different types of money , but there

36:20.262 --> 36:22.262
was kind of like this tourist money

36:22.262 --> 36:24.373
that we had to use and I brought some

36:24.373 --> 36:24.270
of it back like these tiny little

36:24.280 --> 36:27.189
little bills , um , and then I think

36:27.189 --> 36:29.590
there , there was also no no proper

36:29.600 --> 36:31.719
change given so you had to have small

36:31.719 --> 36:34.320
bills , um , because the change that

36:34.320 --> 36:38.080
they gave you was no kidding candy . Um ,

36:38.330 --> 36:40.552
they , when you bought something like a

36:40.552 --> 36:43.649
drink or a Coke , um , uh , at the ,

36:43.699 --> 36:46.250
the little concession stand , um , you

36:46.250 --> 36:48.306
gave them a couple of bucks and they

36:48.306 --> 36:50.250
reach in and , and hit this jar of

36:50.250 --> 36:52.669
candy and just . Yeah , just throw it

36:52.669 --> 36:54.947
on the table , and that is your change ,

36:54.947 --> 36:56.947
sir . Thank you for your business .

36:56.947 --> 36:59.058
Thank you for your American money and

36:59.058 --> 37:01.002
here , here is , uh , here is your

37:01.002 --> 37:03.058
change . Did you ever figure out the

37:03.058 --> 37:05.336
exchange rate between $1 and a lit ? I ,

37:05.336 --> 37:07.502
well , it's , it's , yeah , it's not ,

37:07.502 --> 37:09.502
it's not 4 chts to $1 I'll tell you

37:09.502 --> 37:13.489
that . Well , while

37:13.489 --> 37:15.600
you guys were uh in Pyongyang hanging

37:15.600 --> 37:17.767
out before going out to the site , did

37:17.767 --> 37:19.878
they take you anywhere ? They let you

37:19.878 --> 37:22.045
do any sightseeing , PT , uh , let you

37:22.045 --> 37:21.810
just have free reign of where you

37:21.810 --> 37:23.977
wanted to go ? How did that work out ?

37:25.129 --> 37:27.185
Uh , again , I , I was always like ,

37:27.185 --> 37:29.407
hey , can you take us to a museum ? Can

37:29.407 --> 37:31.573
you take us to different places and we

37:31.573 --> 37:34.350
were not allowed to go any place on our

37:34.350 --> 37:38.149
own . We were with uh The army

37:38.989 --> 37:41.100
Korean the KPA Korean People's Army ,

37:41.100 --> 37:43.590
and so we were not allowed to wander

37:43.590 --> 37:45.757
around or do anything . Sometimes they

37:45.757 --> 37:48.870
would take us to see things you know I

37:48.870 --> 37:51.092
guess we can talk them into maybe going

37:51.092 --> 37:54.419
somewhere um but but we were there was

37:54.550 --> 37:56.989
absolutely zero freedom .

37:58.439 --> 38:00.661
What what does you mentioned uh um this

38:00.661 --> 38:02.883
propaganda now a couple of times , uh ,

38:02.883 --> 38:04.883
explain what that might look like .

38:04.883 --> 38:07.050
What did , what did you see ? I mean ,

38:07.050 --> 38:09.161
basically , it's like a real , I mean

38:09.161 --> 38:11.300
like , like a dystopian country with

38:11.300 --> 38:15.050
like communist uh architecture and

38:15.500 --> 38:17.500
there , there are billboards around

38:17.500 --> 38:19.667
that you'll see , but there's only two

38:19.667 --> 38:21.979
things on the billboards about like the

38:21.979 --> 38:24.035
leaders , like a lot of , you know .

38:24.209 --> 38:26.209
Dear leaders and great , you know ,

38:26.209 --> 38:28.610
propaganda about um the North Korean

38:28.610 --> 38:30.770
leadership and the other is

38:32.570 --> 38:36.110
Literally like They , you know , that's

38:36.110 --> 38:38.429
all the people see is the , you know ,

38:38.629 --> 38:41.510
worship of the leaders and the desire

38:41.510 --> 38:45.429
to kill . I , I remember distinctly you ,

38:45.510 --> 38:47.566
you , you , I , and these billboards

38:47.566 --> 38:50.350
are huge , um , you know , big North

38:50.350 --> 38:54.060
Korean boot , um , on US soldiers ,

38:54.189 --> 38:56.429
you know , uh , a representation of US

38:56.429 --> 38:58.762
soldiers' neck , you know , skeleton on ,

38:58.762 --> 39:01.110
on their neck , so they , they were not

39:01.110 --> 39:04.389
fans , um , uh , and so that was like

39:04.389 --> 39:06.669
Brad said it was displayed all

39:06.669 --> 39:08.725
throughout the trip and . Uh , you ,

39:08.725 --> 39:10.613
you know , in , in retrospect , I

39:10.613 --> 39:12.669
wonder if they took us on the routes

39:12.669 --> 39:14.836
with the most billboards , uh , to try

39:14.836 --> 39:16.947
and intimidate us , um , but you know

39:16.947 --> 39:19.030
that they , they are , it , it's the

39:19.030 --> 39:21.699
propaganda machine is , is big over

39:21.699 --> 39:25.110
there . Yeah , but they , uh , which is

39:25.110 --> 39:27.277
all over like some of these propaganda

39:27.277 --> 39:29.179
books that that I got and , uh ,

39:29.439 --> 39:32.989
billboards , it was . Not Uh

39:35.080 --> 39:37.959
Like it's not like the , the Korean

39:37.959 --> 39:41.159
People's Army's motto is wipe out all

39:41.159 --> 39:43.800
the US imperialist aggressors sworn

39:43.800 --> 39:46.250
enemy of the Korean people . So again ,

39:46.399 --> 39:48.343
not too subtle about how they feel

39:48.343 --> 39:50.621
about the Americans and how , you know ,

39:50.621 --> 39:52.788
I'm sure it's strange for them that to

39:52.788 --> 39:54.732
have us there too and for a lot of

39:54.732 --> 39:57.560
these like young teenage , uh .

39:58.389 --> 40:00.790
Korean North Korean army guys to be

40:00.790 --> 40:03.669
working side by side with people that

40:03.669 --> 40:05.780
they have been taught since they were

40:05.780 --> 40:08.002
babies who want to kill . So that was ,

40:08.002 --> 40:10.225
you know , a little bit of a delicacy .

40:11.280 --> 40:14.379
So when , when we went into Pyongyang ,

40:14.459 --> 40:17.139
we stayed , I , I think it was 2 nights

40:17.139 --> 40:20.580
in , in one of their hotels and we were

40:20.580 --> 40:23.020
prior to that , um , our in brief from

40:23.020 --> 40:26.159
the intel community was , hey . Assume

40:26.159 --> 40:28.326
everything is bugged . There's two-way

40:28.326 --> 40:31.209
mirrors in in the rooms just assume

40:31.209 --> 40:33.239
that you are always being monitored

40:33.239 --> 40:36.310
when you're in the hotel , um , and so

40:36.479 --> 40:39.040
the hotel that we stayed in was on , on

40:39.040 --> 40:41.679
a , uh , on a river and it's where they

40:41.679 --> 40:45.320
kept the US Pueblo , um from when that

40:45.320 --> 40:49.120
was uh captured um uh you know , I

40:49.120 --> 40:51.453
think it's in the 60s , um , but anyway ,

40:51.479 --> 40:53.701
that's , that is a prize possession and

40:53.701 --> 40:55.923
they have that on full display . Uh , I

40:55.923 --> 40:57.979
was told that , uh , a couple of the

40:57.979 --> 41:00.201
teams prior to us going in were able to

41:00.201 --> 41:02.423
visit that , um , and , and then they ,

41:02.423 --> 41:04.646
they abruptly stopped that , uh , and ,

41:04.646 --> 41:06.590
and one of the , one of the common

41:06.590 --> 41:08.312
themes where , you know , Brad

41:08.312 --> 41:10.423
mentioned , hey , he would always ask

41:10.423 --> 41:12.590
to , to go out , you know , one of the

41:12.590 --> 41:14.479
things that the responses that we

41:14.479 --> 41:16.590
always received from the , the Korean

41:16.590 --> 41:16.479
counterparts from North Korean

41:16.479 --> 41:18.469
counterparts was it's not in the

41:18.469 --> 41:22.100
contract . So we had an agreement um to

41:22.100 --> 41:25.419
go in and do recoveries um for our from

41:25.419 --> 41:28.040
our perspective uh we would have liked

41:28.040 --> 41:30.207
to see more detail in there about what

41:30.207 --> 41:31.929
we can and can't do from their

41:31.929 --> 41:33.873
perspective it was extremely vague

41:33.873 --> 41:36.096
which gave them a little bit additional

41:36.096 --> 41:38.500
leverage uh to you know conduct

41:38.500 --> 41:40.780
business how they saw fit , um , but

41:40.780 --> 41:42.891
you know at the end of the day we got

41:42.891 --> 41:44.836
access which is ultimately what we

41:44.836 --> 41:46.836
wanted . Um , to go in there and do

41:46.836 --> 41:48.947
recoveries . And some of the , one of

41:48.947 --> 41:51.113
the places that just popped in my head

41:51.113 --> 41:53.280
that , uh , one of them I think it was

41:53.280 --> 41:55.447
a 98 mission . I got him to take us to

41:55.447 --> 41:57.447
a cave like so we did like it was a

41:57.447 --> 41:59.502
tourist cave and , and it took us in

41:59.502 --> 42:01.336
there and just like the level of

42:01.336 --> 42:03.447
propaganda that everything you see is

42:03.447 --> 42:05.669
ties back to like . The dear leader and

42:05.669 --> 42:08.860
the great leader This stalagmite

42:08.860 --> 42:10.916
measures blah blah blah height which

42:10.916 --> 42:14.010
corresponds with the birth date of the

42:14.010 --> 42:16.066
dear leader Kim Il-sung , you know ,

42:16.066 --> 42:18.177
the great leader Kim Il-sung . It was

42:18.177 --> 42:20.288
just like the weirdness of everything

42:20.288 --> 42:22.343
you look at from just . Just natural

42:22.343 --> 42:25.750
features were all tied back into . Like

42:26.139 --> 42:29.949
can also . And

42:29.949 --> 42:32.550
like Chris is saying like . On this

42:32.550 --> 42:35.399
date , the dear leader state , you know ,

42:35.479 --> 42:36.868
stood at this location .

42:39.469 --> 42:41.989
Everywhere in the hotels , every like

42:41.989 --> 42:45.149
uh park that you go to , there is at

42:45.149 --> 42:48.149
least 17 references of the dear leader

42:48.149 --> 42:50.780
stood right here on this day picture of

42:50.780 --> 42:53.110
them , you know , waving , um , and ,

42:53.189 --> 42:55.800
and you know they , they , no kidding

42:55.800 --> 42:58.179
worship the the leadership over there

42:58.179 --> 43:00.346
and that's how they've been brought up

43:00.346 --> 43:02.989
and , and indoctrinated so .

43:04.780 --> 43:05.780
Do

43:10.080 --> 43:12.080
as we were moving to one of maybe a

43:12.080 --> 43:13.969
little go ahead . Or we live in .

43:17.590 --> 43:19.780
We had to stop Museum .

43:20.949 --> 43:23.399
And as you walk into them they , they ,

43:23.479 --> 43:25.535
we had to see the museum , we had to

43:25.535 --> 43:27.757
see what it was about , everything they

43:27.757 --> 43:29.979
had and you walk in and the first thing

43:29.979 --> 43:29.850
you see is the , the great , the dear

43:29.850 --> 43:33.320
leader and a wax statue . And of course

43:33.320 --> 43:35.431
they want you to sit there and bow to

43:35.431 --> 43:37.320
them , you know , uh , it's their

43:37.320 --> 43:39.487
tradition , you know , and so you walk

43:39.487 --> 43:41.709
through and they'll display of all this

43:41.709 --> 43:43.709
stuff that all these countries have

43:43.709 --> 43:43.530
ever given them just like some of the

43:43.530 --> 43:46.000
stuff we have here , um , and then of

43:46.000 --> 43:48.409
course , You walk through the the

43:48.409 --> 43:50.576
museum , see everything that they want

43:50.576 --> 43:52.631
you to see , and you go upstairs and

43:52.770 --> 43:55.290
they have the , uh , a place that you

43:55.290 --> 43:57.179
sit and you can just overlook the

43:57.179 --> 43:58.901
country , you know , see . The

43:58.901 --> 44:00.901
mountains and everything and that's

44:00.901 --> 44:02.957
where , you know , it goes back in .

44:02.957 --> 44:05.959
They All this stuff

44:07.040 --> 44:09.790
to pay back in candy from our . So it's

44:09.790 --> 44:12.560
uh it's a . You could see the

44:12.560 --> 44:14.560
indoctrination that the country has

44:14.560 --> 44:16.782
like when you walk into this . How they

44:16.782 --> 44:19.919
want you to , how they have a . I know

44:19.919 --> 44:22.030
one of the places that we would uh go

44:22.030 --> 44:24.197
into when we were going to the shows .

44:25.199 --> 44:26.110
We stayed in a

44:31.429 --> 44:34.860
That How long and it was an

44:34.860 --> 44:37.919
industrial city . And um

44:38.669 --> 44:40.891
So in the mornings , you know , we were

44:40.891 --> 44:43.002
lucky we got to stay there a few days

44:43.002 --> 44:45.225
before . Into the chosen , but you know

44:45.225 --> 44:47.447
they could come out and want us to work

44:47.447 --> 44:49.502
and in this country at the time that

44:49.502 --> 44:51.502
you know I can remember that is you

44:51.502 --> 44:53.725
don't have a assigned job to do in that

44:53.725 --> 44:55.836
country it's whatever they assign you

44:55.836 --> 44:57.947
that wanted to do so you can um , you

44:57.947 --> 44:59.891
know , little kids to , you know ,

44:59.891 --> 45:01.836
elderly people , they would be out

45:01.836 --> 45:04.058
there lined up waiting to find out what

45:04.058 --> 45:06.280
their task was . They they would is and

45:06.280 --> 45:08.058
speaking of assigned jobs as an

45:08.058 --> 45:07.750
assistant team leader , one of the

45:07.750 --> 45:09.917
things you do is help the team uh kind

45:09.917 --> 45:11.917
of get organized and get set up and

45:11.917 --> 45:14.083
establish some base camps . I think at

45:14.083 --> 45:16.250
this point in , uh , North Korea we're

45:16.250 --> 45:18.417
operating a base camp out of Osan area

45:18.417 --> 45:20.528
and you were involved in establishing

45:20.528 --> 45:22.806
one there at the chosen reservoir . Uh ,

45:22.806 --> 45:25.028
you talk a little bit about what a base

45:25.028 --> 45:27.028
camp is like and the setup and what

45:27.028 --> 45:29.250
that's , uh , what it would look like .

45:29.250 --> 45:31.194
So I thought was , you know , much

45:31.194 --> 45:33.729
better because , uh , I came in after

45:33.729 --> 45:36.649
it was established and we lived in , if

45:36.649 --> 45:38.760
anybody knows what Denver tents are ,

45:38.760 --> 45:40.760
their canvas tents , you know , two

45:40.760 --> 45:43.038
people . You know , we stayed in those ,

45:43.038 --> 45:45.389
um , we had mesh tents that we could do

45:45.389 --> 45:47.445
so , which is a bigger tent to go in

45:47.445 --> 45:49.556
and that's where we have our meetings

45:49.556 --> 45:51.778
and then you would have . I remember it

45:51.778 --> 45:53.945
it's on down at the lower part was our

45:53.945 --> 45:56.167
bathhouse and bathrooms , you know , we

45:56.167 --> 45:58.510
could go down there and uh . It was ,

45:58.889 --> 46:01.340
you know . I guess in a little valley

46:01.340 --> 46:03.507
and we had tents lined up on each side

46:03.507 --> 46:06.939
and . And uh we had the , the ,

46:07.229 --> 46:09.396
our security force on the North Korean

46:09.396 --> 46:11.562
army that would you know , guard us at

46:11.562 --> 46:13.729
the , on the bridges . They watch over

46:13.729 --> 46:15.618
us and make sure we were safe and

46:15.618 --> 46:18.570
nobody bothered us and . I guess so but

46:19.120 --> 46:21.342
it was real funny . I don't know if you

46:21.342 --> 46:23.820
remember this , but in . Right outside

46:23.820 --> 46:26.479
the bathroom area there was a gate and

46:26.479 --> 46:28.701
right before after the gate there was a

46:28.701 --> 46:30.757
little river that we had to cross to

46:30.757 --> 46:32.757
come into the compound , our little

46:32.757 --> 46:32.459
compound and just on the other side ,

46:32.500 --> 46:34.833
the North Koreans had the same compound ,

46:34.833 --> 46:36.944
almost exactly like ours , you know ,

46:36.944 --> 46:38.889
whatever we had , they had it , it

46:38.889 --> 46:41.750
didn't matter and so um . But if you

46:41.750 --> 46:44.709
got too far past the bathroom and a

46:44.709 --> 46:46.765
shower area , they blow a whistle at

46:46.765 --> 46:48.598
you . One whistle means that's a

46:48.598 --> 46:50.820
warning . You know , turn around and go

46:50.820 --> 46:53.042
back where you came from . Two whistles

46:53.042 --> 46:54.931
that might be bad for you . So we

46:54.931 --> 46:57.153
always , you know , as , as Americans ,

46:57.153 --> 46:59.265
we'd always test it just a little bit

46:59.265 --> 47:01.598
here and there , you know , yeah , yeah ,

47:01.598 --> 47:03.709
you have to , you know , see what was

47:03.709 --> 47:03.510
gonna happen , but we never tested

47:03.510 --> 47:05.621
enough to where anybody , anybody got

47:05.621 --> 47:08.270
hurt . So , but , you know , Franklin

47:08.270 --> 47:11.350
was talking about the chosen . In

47:11.669 --> 47:15.310
August . I think it was August um of .

47:16.379 --> 47:19.739
2001 , I think it was . I was over at

47:19.739 --> 47:21.795
Amazon doing it and I got pulled off

47:21.795 --> 47:23.850
and we had to go do an investigation

47:23.850 --> 47:25.850
into the chosen the first time that

47:25.850 --> 47:28.017
we'd ever been in a chosen reservoir .

47:28.017 --> 47:29.795
And don't get me wrong , it's a

47:29.795 --> 47:31.850
beautiful place up there , it's just

47:31.850 --> 47:34.183
untouched still at that time , you know ,

47:34.183 --> 47:36.239
um , went up there and it was just .

47:36.239 --> 47:38.406
Nothing there , nothing , uh , I think

47:38.406 --> 47:40.295
we went through maybe a couple of

47:40.295 --> 47:42.461
villages at the time , the way we went

47:42.461 --> 47:44.406
up . We talked about the hotels up

47:44.406 --> 47:46.628
there they want to build hotels so that

47:46.628 --> 47:48.795
they could stay in hotels , but it was

47:48.795 --> 47:50.739
really put them when we weren't in

47:50.739 --> 47:52.850
there , you know , so the army . Um ,

47:52.850 --> 47:55.459
went back in and . September , October ,

47:55.629 --> 47:58.510
uh went right back in and we built the

47:58.510 --> 48:00.677
base camp . Now this is the first time

48:00.677 --> 48:02.843
that we've built anything and it shows

48:02.843 --> 48:05.066
some reservoirs since we left in in the

48:05.066 --> 48:08.739
50s . It wasn't elaborate

48:08.739 --> 48:12.639
as . We just started developing

48:12.639 --> 48:14.806
it and same thing , we had a different

48:14.806 --> 48:16.972
tents , we had the large tents and and

48:16.972 --> 48:19.195
Brad , you know , we were talking about

48:19.195 --> 48:21.195
this the other day that we remember

48:21.195 --> 48:23.528
knights were getting down to zeros , uh ,

48:23.528 --> 48:25.639
staying in these tents trying to stay

48:25.639 --> 48:27.750
warm . And get up in the morning , so

48:27.750 --> 48:27.110
hopefully everything's stalled enough

48:27.110 --> 48:29.166
that we could go out of the recovery

48:29.166 --> 48:31.388
site and start digging , you know , I'm

48:31.388 --> 48:33.554
trying to do that . I wanna tell you a

48:33.554 --> 48:33.209
story back on the news on site here .

48:34.709 --> 48:36.949
Alluded to that we had the North Korean

48:36.949 --> 48:39.227
soldiers that were guarding us , right ?

48:39.227 --> 48:41.449
So you would think when somebody guards

48:41.449 --> 48:43.330
you . They face away from you to

48:43.330 --> 48:45.274
protect you from anybody injured ,

48:45.274 --> 48:47.290
right ? Well , they would face us

48:47.290 --> 48:50.520
regardless , you know . Very weird .

48:51.469 --> 48:53.570
And you know , you hear people that

48:53.570 --> 48:55.919
would be there before you and you hear

48:55.919 --> 48:59.260
these stories and stuff , so . You know

48:59.260 --> 49:01.260
what it is , so you'll be laying in

49:01.260 --> 49:03.316
your 10 at night . You hear rumbling

49:03.316 --> 49:05.204
and walking and stuff out there .

49:05.204 --> 49:07.427
They're walking around checking to make

49:07.427 --> 49:09.371
sure we're safe , right ? And they

49:09.371 --> 49:11.427
would , they would walk up 100 tents

49:11.427 --> 49:14.189
and they all carry AK-47s . And you

49:14.189 --> 49:17.219
hear something You know that that metal

49:17.219 --> 49:19.441
of that barrel against the metal pole .

49:19.629 --> 49:20.629
Right

49:24.879 --> 49:27.101
You know , so they would mess with us ,

49:27.101 --> 49:28.990
you know , they , they never done

49:28.990 --> 49:31.046
anything to us but they would , they

49:31.046 --> 49:31.030
would mess with our heads all the time ,

49:31.110 --> 49:32.888
you know , so it was , it was .

49:35.459 --> 49:37.939
Were you nervous yet ? Did that , how

49:37.939 --> 49:41.100
about now , you know , so Brad , at

49:41.100 --> 49:43.211
this point , you know , we're setting

49:43.211 --> 49:45.433
up a base camp and as the archaeologist

49:45.433 --> 49:47.489
on the site , you're just collecting

49:47.489 --> 49:49.544
propaganda really up to this point ,

49:49.544 --> 49:52.820
right . How , how did How did you deal

49:52.820 --> 49:55.370
with the delays and was that normal for

49:55.370 --> 49:57.203
you ? Were there any extenuating

49:57.203 --> 49:58.981
circumstances that would create

49:58.981 --> 50:01.203
additional delays in getting out to the

50:01.203 --> 50:03.426
uh to actually begin an excavation ? So

50:03.426 --> 50:06.810
on the , the 2001 mission

50:06.810 --> 50:10.179
um around Chosen , so there was no base

50:10.179 --> 50:12.770
camps set up there , so . The first

50:12.770 --> 50:16.280
couple weeks that was like scheduled to

50:16.570 --> 50:18.792
be somewhat of a delay in starting work

50:18.792 --> 50:21.010
because we had to establish this base

50:21.010 --> 50:23.929
camp , but there was also another

50:23.929 --> 50:26.250
significant occurrence in September of

50:26.250 --> 50:29.919
2001 , um , so we were

50:29.919 --> 50:33.429
in North Korea on 9/11 attacks , um ,

50:33.889 --> 50:36.729
and just to show you like the level of .

50:38.139 --> 50:41.379
Seclusion and uh like there's no , no

50:41.379 --> 50:43.389
phones , right ? There's no TV ,

50:43.620 --> 50:45.787
there's no communication . If you turn

50:45.787 --> 50:48.139
on the TV it's just the propaganda

50:48.139 --> 50:50.739
channels . So like in preparation for

50:50.739 --> 50:52.850
this , once I got invited to come , I

50:52.850 --> 50:55.017
started digging through some of my old

50:55.017 --> 50:56.961
photos and I found this notebook ,

50:57.100 --> 50:59.100
which I don't really have , I don't

50:59.100 --> 51:01.610
know why , but I did a notebook of uh

51:01.939 --> 51:05.010
just kind of daily daily um

51:05.899 --> 51:07.955
Uh , recordings of , of , you know ,

51:07.955 --> 51:10.177
what happened that day . So I opened up

51:10.177 --> 51:13.489
to September 11th , 2001 , and again ,

51:13.550 --> 51:15.606
there's a time , time difference but

51:15.606 --> 51:18.030
just to kind of like highlight how

51:18.030 --> 51:20.389
secluded we were like most of these I

51:20.389 --> 51:22.111
have pages and pages per day ,

51:22.189 --> 51:25.840
September 11 , 2001 . Nothing going on

51:25.840 --> 51:29.300
at all . We tried to get another recon

51:29.300 --> 51:31.411
team to go to the base camp , but the

51:31.411 --> 51:33.850
KPA would not allow it . That's it ,

51:33.969 --> 51:36.191
you know , so like nothing . I didn't .

51:36.929 --> 51:40.699
September 12th We just

51:40.699 --> 51:42.810
received news this morning that there

51:42.810 --> 51:44.921
was a huge terrorist attack back home

51:44.921 --> 51:47.143
and several airplanes were hijacked and

51:47.143 --> 51:49.143
suicide crashed into the government

51:49.143 --> 51:51.143
buildings . Um , again , we're just

51:51.143 --> 51:53.255
getting this through a sat phone call

51:53.255 --> 51:57.090
and we're imagining that . Like

51:57.090 --> 52:00.100
the World Trade Towers . Probably were

52:00.100 --> 52:02.100
full of people . They probably fell

52:02.100 --> 52:04.156
down sideways . There could be , you

52:04.156 --> 52:06.322
know , hundreds of thousands of people

52:06.322 --> 52:08.267
dead . I think Woody maybe somehow

52:08.267 --> 52:11.729
brought in a shortwave radio , so , um .

52:12.510 --> 52:14.899
They're listening to some South Korea

52:14.899 --> 52:18.149
um stations and we're hearing like Bush

52:18.149 --> 52:20.620
just declared war on the axis of evil

52:20.620 --> 52:23.229
and like we're like , holy , we are in

52:23.229 --> 52:26.219
the axis of evil . And uh

52:27.120 --> 52:29.176
You know , and , and then , and then

52:29.176 --> 52:31.120
the South Koreans are saying North

52:31.120 --> 52:33.287
Korea may be involved in this . Um , I

52:33.287 --> 52:35.342
remember our team leader at the time

52:35.342 --> 52:37.453
was like , we don't know what's gonna

52:37.453 --> 52:39.342
happen like . You guys need to be

52:39.342 --> 52:41.564
prepared if you take a hostage , like ,

52:41.564 --> 52:43.679
sleep in your clothes with your money

52:43.679 --> 52:45.623
because I think , you know , we're

52:45.623 --> 52:47.568
gonna be worth more than the North

52:47.568 --> 52:49.568
Koreans alive and . Maybe marketing

52:49.568 --> 52:51.790
chips like what and then then yeah so

52:51.790 --> 52:54.012
then my , my final note on that day was

52:54.012 --> 52:56.429
uh not to be selfish , but I can think

52:56.429 --> 52:58.629
of other places that I would rather be

52:58.629 --> 53:02.570
than in North Korea . That was

53:02.570 --> 53:04.860
like the weirdest thing and , and .

53:05.850 --> 53:09.070
Again , just how like nothing on TV ,

53:09.189 --> 53:11.078
no communication , like the first

53:11.078 --> 53:15.060
photograph I saw of 9/11 was not

53:15.060 --> 53:17.171
till we left the country in October .

53:17.600 --> 53:19.767
You know , Brad was talking about that

53:19.767 --> 53:22.780
day and um . It was funny when you come

53:22.780 --> 53:24.836
into the country , they , they won't

53:24.836 --> 53:27.060
allow you to have electronics and

53:27.060 --> 53:31.010
things like that and I had a CD player

53:31.260 --> 53:33.371
and that's all we could take in , but

53:33.371 --> 53:35.482
fortunately it had a little shortwave

53:35.482 --> 53:37.482
radio and I was listening to AFM in

53:37.482 --> 53:39.427
Korea , ACA and Korea listening to

53:39.427 --> 53:41.593
radio , and that's , you know , that's

53:41.593 --> 53:43.649
where we heard that and . About that

53:43.649 --> 53:45.704
time , it all happened . They , they

53:45.704 --> 53:47.871
started for us and pulled us into this

53:47.871 --> 53:47.719
one area and that's , you know , that's

53:47.719 --> 53:50.320
where we ate at and when they kept us

53:50.320 --> 53:52.209
located . That's where we started

53:52.209 --> 53:54.320
discussing what we were going on . Of

53:54.320 --> 53:56.320
course , we were being heard . They

53:56.320 --> 53:55.560
bugged , you know , they had everything

53:55.560 --> 53:57.393
plugged in so , you know , I was

53:57.393 --> 53:59.860
thinking and . And at that time , my

53:59.860 --> 54:02.169
wife was pregnant with my daughter ,

54:02.620 --> 54:06.159
and she was 7 months . And

54:06.639 --> 54:08.750
she got a phone call that morning and

54:08.750 --> 54:10.806
she said , hey , I just want to show

54:10.806 --> 54:12.806
Tom's OK , right ? So she's a boy ,

54:12.806 --> 54:14.972
right ? And uh she's , OK , whatever ,

54:15.280 --> 54:17.280
you know , she didn't know anything

54:17.280 --> 54:19.336
about it yet . And I'm hearing these

54:19.336 --> 54:21.280
stories after the fact and then so

54:21.280 --> 54:23.502
somebody comes and knocks on her door ,

54:23.502 --> 54:25.836
she comes downstairs and she said , hey ,

54:25.836 --> 54:25.469
I just want to listen to Tom's OK ? And

54:25.469 --> 54:27.802
she said , OK , somebody's told me this ,

54:27.802 --> 54:29.858
why now ? Why is Tom OK , you know ,

54:29.858 --> 54:32.025
what , what happened ? And then , so ,

54:32.025 --> 54:34.025
you know , it's kind of interesting

54:34.025 --> 54:33.709
that she didn't even know for a period

54:33.709 --> 54:36.042
of time because where she was at Hawaii ,

54:36.042 --> 54:38.098
and then she finds out this and then

54:38.098 --> 54:40.209
she said , oh , Tom , North Korea now

54:40.209 --> 54:42.376
but we're , you're telling us that the

54:42.376 --> 54:44.487
team's OK and so it was assuring that

54:44.487 --> 54:46.653
they were telling our families as well

54:46.653 --> 54:46.469
that Taken care of while we were there ,

54:46.590 --> 54:48.701
you know , we were safe as well while

54:48.701 --> 54:51.350
we were there , so . I mentioned that

54:51.350 --> 54:55.260
the seclusion we had um when we

54:55.550 --> 54:57.899
did recoveries in North Korea , we left

54:57.899 --> 55:01.159
a liaison um . In

55:01.159 --> 55:05.040
Pyongyang and we had specific times

55:05.040 --> 55:07.550
when we had so we had a radio up at

55:07.550 --> 55:09.661
Chosen so we did two recovery teams ,

55:09.661 --> 55:12.429
one in Unsan and one in Chosen , um ,

55:12.520 --> 55:15.830
and we had specific times that we had

55:15.830 --> 55:19.360
to try and contact Pyongyang over the

55:19.360 --> 55:21.610
radio to give , you know , hey , we ,

55:21.719 --> 55:24.639
we either we're digging here we found

55:24.639 --> 55:26.639
remains we didn't find remains just

55:26.639 --> 55:30.534
very curt , uh , updates , uh . 1 for

55:30.534 --> 55:32.534
like hey everything's OK here we're

55:32.534 --> 55:35.175
still good um and and number 2 to to

55:35.175 --> 55:37.231
actually update the mission but they

55:37.231 --> 55:39.774
were they were uh those specific times

55:39.774 --> 55:42.895
were because that is when uh the North

55:42.895 --> 55:45.284
Koreans would drop all of their

55:45.554 --> 55:48.149
electronic jamming . So that we could

55:48.149 --> 55:51.459
actually contact Pyongyang uh over the

55:51.459 --> 55:54.500
radio so I mean again they are

55:54.820 --> 55:58.459
actively you know trying to uh gather

55:58.459 --> 56:00.379
intelligence prevent us from

56:00.379 --> 56:03.340
communicating , um , and so you know

56:03.340 --> 56:05.939
all that in mind we're still operating

56:05.939 --> 56:08.780
as best as we can um under those

56:08.780 --> 56:11.540
situations and uh and and trying to to

56:11.540 --> 56:14.360
accomplish the mission . All right , so

56:14.360 --> 56:16.582
now after you've had some , uh , rather

56:16.582 --> 56:18.750
significant delays , uh , taking some

56:18.750 --> 56:20.694
time whether it's through a secure

56:20.694 --> 56:22.639
circuitous , uh , drive across the

56:22.639 --> 56:24.750
country to the site . Brad , you're ,

56:24.750 --> 56:26.694
you're finally now at the site and

56:26.694 --> 56:28.639
you've done excavations , uh , all

56:28.639 --> 56:31.669
around the globe . How was it similar

56:31.669 --> 56:33.760
or different , uh , excavating these

56:33.760 --> 56:35.871
sites in North Korea compared to some

56:35.871 --> 56:38.093
of the other um sites you've worked ? I

56:38.093 --> 56:40.204
think that the main difference , like

56:40.204 --> 56:41.871
the actual excavation and the

56:41.889 --> 56:44.000
archaeology , forensic anthropology ,

56:44.129 --> 56:46.351
like once we're actually allowed to dig

56:46.351 --> 56:48.530
in the dirt was not that different ,

56:48.570 --> 56:51.570
but it's just the , the access and you

56:51.570 --> 56:53.969
know , we were at the complete mercy of .

56:54.639 --> 56:57.590
The North Koreans , the North Korean

56:57.590 --> 57:00.899
army that was escorting us around , and

57:00.899 --> 57:03.100
some days it would be like today we're

57:03.100 --> 57:05.267
going to take you to this site today ,

57:05.267 --> 57:07.378
and then some days like we would be ,

57:07.378 --> 57:09.433
you know , we were working on at one

57:09.433 --> 57:11.656
point around the chosen like we found a

57:11.656 --> 57:13.767
mass grave that had 12 individuals in

57:13.767 --> 57:15.959
it . You know , obviously like a huge

57:15.959 --> 57:18.070
deal , like probably the biggest site

57:18.070 --> 57:20.600
that had been discovered to date and

57:20.600 --> 57:23.000
then they would just be like , today we

57:23.000 --> 57:26.449
are stopping work at 12 . We're like we

57:26.449 --> 57:28.616
have a mass grave or they we have like

57:28.616 --> 57:30.810
2 days to finish this . These soldiers

57:30.810 --> 57:32.921
need to go back to do their laundry ,

57:32.921 --> 57:34.866
and I was like , what ? Like we're

57:34.866 --> 57:37.189
gonna stop working because like the KPA

57:37.189 --> 57:39.520
soldiers need to go do laundry at noon .

57:39.689 --> 57:42.050
Yes . You know , but you can argue with

57:42.050 --> 57:44.106
them , but you're not gonna , you're

57:44.106 --> 57:46.272
not gonna win that . Like again , it's

57:46.272 --> 57:48.494
not , not in the agreement or you're at

57:48.494 --> 57:50.717
they're , they're total mercy . So that

57:50.717 --> 57:50.510
to me and then just , you know , again

57:50.729 --> 57:53.010
reading through this booklet and like I

57:53.010 --> 57:54.954
was getting at a lot of this stuff

57:54.954 --> 57:57.820
because it was like . On just it's like

57:57.820 --> 58:00.260
every day of just kind of this back and

58:00.260 --> 58:02.371
forth . So for me that was , that was

58:02.371 --> 58:04.260
very frustrating and uh I've been

58:04.260 --> 58:06.093
reading that again came out just

58:06.093 --> 58:08.038
because I just wanna do the work ,

58:08.038 --> 58:09.982
right ? I'm , uh , we've got these

58:09.982 --> 58:12.204
skeletons are being exposed and we need

58:12.204 --> 58:14.427
to recover them and get them out but we

58:14.427 --> 58:16.538
need to like monkey business of , you

58:16.538 --> 58:18.704
know , playing these little games . So

58:18.704 --> 58:20.927
that , that to me was frustrating , you

58:20.927 --> 58:20.139
know , you're gonna see that in any

58:20.139 --> 58:23.729
country , but it's like . I You know ,

58:24.090 --> 58:25.757
everything , everything was a

58:25.757 --> 58:27.929
negotiation with them . I mean , even

58:27.929 --> 58:30.500
though everything was set and . You

58:30.500 --> 58:32.222
know , stone and conjuring and

58:32.222 --> 58:34.389
everything that we had to follow , but

58:34.389 --> 58:36.556
if anything you had to do , you had to

58:36.556 --> 58:38.667
sit down with an official negotiation

58:38.667 --> 58:40.889
with them , you know , you had our side

58:40.889 --> 58:40.699
of the table , you had the other side

58:40.699 --> 58:42.810
of the table and it just , everything

58:42.810 --> 58:44.860
was just long and drawn out and it

58:49.219 --> 58:52.479
I can remember um my linguist , uh ,

58:52.489 --> 58:56.250
was , was a marine captain and uh he

58:56.250 --> 58:58.306
would , he would often comment so we

58:58.306 --> 59:00.689
talked about the isolationist , um , he

59:00.689 --> 59:02.911
would often comment that you know and ,

59:02.911 --> 59:05.370
and Mr . Chung talked about the accents ,

59:05.409 --> 59:09.209
right ? Well , the , the verbiage that

59:09.209 --> 59:12.129
the North Koreans would use was um

59:12.129 --> 59:15.590
antiquated . So it had not evolved like

59:15.590 --> 59:17.534
you go to South Korea , like think

59:17.534 --> 59:19.646
about the kids and in the terminology

59:19.646 --> 59:21.646
that we that we use right ? and the

59:21.646 --> 59:23.479
terminology we use as a kid it's

59:23.479 --> 59:25.534
different from our with our children

59:25.534 --> 59:27.590
and , and that language changes over

59:27.590 --> 59:29.757
time . Um , one of the things that was

59:29.757 --> 59:31.757
kind of interesting about the North

59:31.757 --> 59:33.923
Korean language is it hadn't changed ,

59:33.923 --> 59:36.146
um , they use like antiquated terms for

59:36.146 --> 59:39.209
like things like belt or pants or you

59:39.209 --> 59:41.840
know shirt , um , and it just goes to

59:41.850 --> 59:44.120
to show you that they are , you know ,

59:44.379 --> 59:47.409
self contained , not interested in , in

59:47.409 --> 59:49.919
growing , not interested in change , um ,

59:49.929 --> 59:52.151
and so that's uh that's one aspect that

59:52.151 --> 59:55.360
I thought was interesting . So for

59:55.360 --> 59:57.527
these recoveries , what kind of , what

59:57.527 --> 01:00:01.199
was the preservation like ? Uh , well ,

01:00:01.340 --> 01:00:03.562
uh , like the , this mass grave that we

01:00:03.562 --> 01:00:05.618
did that we had 12 individuals , the

01:00:05.618 --> 01:00:07.507
preservation was , uh , the , the

01:00:07.507 --> 01:00:09.979
skeletal remains were in really good

01:00:09.979 --> 01:00:12.649
condition , um , and , you know , we

01:00:12.649 --> 01:00:15.729
still found some dog tags , um , found

01:00:15.729 --> 01:00:18.100
some like those pineapple grenades are

01:00:18.100 --> 01:00:20.211
still there , but , um , so the , the

01:00:20.211 --> 01:00:22.156
preservation was , was , was , was

01:00:22.156 --> 01:00:24.378
pretty good for the most part as far as

01:00:24.378 --> 01:00:24.260
the , the recoveries that we did .

01:00:27.580 --> 01:00:30.679
Anything else ? I , I would ,

01:00:31.080 --> 01:00:33.689
we , we were able to , uh , recover a

01:00:33.689 --> 01:00:36.280
couple sets of remains and , um , to ,

01:00:36.389 --> 01:00:38.500
to Brad's point , you know , uniforms

01:00:38.500 --> 01:00:41.469
still on , dog tags , um , you know ,

01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:44.290
boots , you know , we had his wallet ,

01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:48.820
um , still opened up . And uh could see

01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:51.153
the contents in there so everything was ,

01:00:51.153 --> 01:00:53.376
was very well preserved . I think there

01:00:53.376 --> 01:00:55.542
were other instances where they were ,

01:00:55.542 --> 01:00:57.850
they had been tampered with . So it it

01:00:57.850 --> 01:01:00.072
sounds like at this point you're really

01:01:00.072 --> 01:01:01.906
describing what we would call an

01:01:01.906 --> 01:01:04.183
archaeologists primary in situ burials ,

01:01:04.183 --> 01:01:06.406
right ? This is the site where a person

01:01:06.406 --> 01:01:08.517
was buried . Is that , is that always

01:01:08.517 --> 01:01:10.683
the case in these sites that you would

01:01:10.683 --> 01:01:12.739
work here ? Uh , no , absolutely not

01:01:12.739 --> 01:01:14.850
the , the , the , the mass grave that

01:01:14.850 --> 01:01:17.370
we did , that was a primary init to

01:01:17.370 --> 01:01:19.592
burials , but the other thing I think ,

01:01:19.592 --> 01:01:21.814
at least , you know , the early , early

01:01:21.814 --> 01:01:23.870
intermissions when I was there , the

01:01:23.870 --> 01:01:25.981
North Koreans didn't like surprises ,

01:01:25.981 --> 01:01:29.479
so we definitely found . Sites that

01:01:29.479 --> 01:01:31.879
showed tampering where it was like the

01:01:31.879 --> 01:01:33.879
North Koreans like kind of staged a

01:01:33.879 --> 01:01:35.935
burial and took us there and came up

01:01:35.935 --> 01:01:39.090
with a story saying like . A farmer

01:01:39.090 --> 01:01:42.679
told us that they were farming here and

01:01:43.209 --> 01:01:45.770
found some bones like um we think you

01:01:45.770 --> 01:01:47.929
should dig right here and you know ,

01:01:48.050 --> 01:01:50.161
and like , oh my gosh , there's bones

01:01:50.161 --> 01:01:52.328
there . So you know , they had kind of

01:01:52.328 --> 01:01:54.328
like staged it and even on one site

01:01:54.328 --> 01:01:56.494
there was like we had remains that had

01:01:56.494 --> 01:01:58.328
glue on them so they've got been

01:01:58.328 --> 01:02:00.661
brought in from . From another location .

01:02:00.661 --> 01:02:03.449
I think that was a way for them to um

01:02:03.449 --> 01:02:06.330
kind of return remains to us but come

01:02:06.330 --> 01:02:08.330
up with , you know , kind of a , a

01:02:08.330 --> 01:02:10.489
story to make it seem , seem somewhat

01:02:10.489 --> 01:02:12.711
legitimate and I , I do think like when

01:02:12.711 --> 01:02:14.767
they took us to the , the mass grave

01:02:14.767 --> 01:02:17.270
around Chosen . I think they've been

01:02:17.270 --> 01:02:19.437
out there before kind of poking around

01:02:19.437 --> 01:02:21.548
and knew there was something there so

01:02:21.548 --> 01:02:23.659
then they took us there , but once we

01:02:23.659 --> 01:02:25.881
started digging it and exposing it , it

01:02:25.881 --> 01:02:27.770
ended up being about , you know .

01:02:27.770 --> 01:02:30.540
Probably like 20 ft by 3 ft like a

01:02:30.540 --> 01:02:32.484
trench with these bodies in it . I

01:02:32.484 --> 01:02:34.651
don't think they realized it was quite

01:02:34.651 --> 01:02:37.820
as extensive , but I think they knew we

01:02:37.820 --> 01:02:39.542
were going to find something ,

01:02:39.542 --> 01:02:41.820
something there , but it was more , um ,

01:02:41.820 --> 01:02:43.987
I think , I think it was a lot , a lot

01:02:43.987 --> 01:02:43.899
bigger than .

01:02:51.010 --> 01:02:54.899
So Woody Every site

01:02:54.899 --> 01:02:57.121
I've ever been on to , there's always a

01:02:57.121 --> 01:03:00.979
uh uh an effort . And planning for some

01:03:00.979 --> 01:03:03.090
sort of medical evac , right ? How do

01:03:03.090 --> 01:03:05.739
you manage the uh health and safety of

01:03:05.739 --> 01:03:08.020
the team while deployed ? You're

01:03:08.020 --> 01:03:10.353
already out here , you're isolated . Uh ,

01:03:10.353 --> 01:03:12.409
what was your , what kind of medevac

01:03:12.409 --> 01:03:15.020
plan did you guys have uh on your teams ?

01:03:16.729 --> 01:03:18.896
Well Frankly , so you mentioned that ,

01:03:18.896 --> 01:03:22.860
um . So there's really

01:03:24.469 --> 01:03:26.689
You know , I , I , I , I think back to

01:03:26.689 --> 01:03:28.800
other missions I've done in Papua New

01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:30.967
Guinea and Vietnam and Tibet and other

01:03:30.967 --> 01:03:33.520
places I went to and , and we always

01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.050
had the ability to have medical support .

01:03:37.129 --> 01:03:39.240
We always had places that we could go

01:03:39.240 --> 01:03:41.462
if something happened , we always , you

01:03:41.462 --> 01:03:45.010
know , there , so I remember . I

01:03:45.010 --> 01:03:48.629
remember , um . And the chosen because

01:03:48.629 --> 01:03:50.796
the first time we've ever been there ,

01:03:50.796 --> 01:03:52.830
there was really no , no , anything

01:03:52.830 --> 01:03:55.229
medical except for I think we had a

01:03:55.229 --> 01:03:58.860
special forces guy with us , um . A

01:03:58.860 --> 01:04:02.479
medic and then we had a um . An Air

01:04:02.479 --> 01:04:04.479
Force doctor or something , I can't

01:04:04.479 --> 01:04:06.479
remember , um , and so that was our

01:04:06.479 --> 01:04:08.701
extent to the medical support , but you

01:04:08.701 --> 01:04:10.868
know , Franklin was trying to bring up

01:04:10.868 --> 01:04:12.979
the fact that uh I got injured during

01:04:12.979 --> 01:04:16.100
that mission and Trying to figure out

01:04:16.510 --> 01:04:20.000
how . To attend to

01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:22.320
my injuries and I , I messed my ankle

01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:24.598
foot up . I can't remember what it was .

01:04:24.598 --> 01:04:26.709
So the North Koreans come up with the

01:04:26.709 --> 01:04:28.542
idea that hey , let's go back to

01:04:28.542 --> 01:04:30.709
Pyongyang and let's go to the hospital

01:04:30.709 --> 01:04:33.550
to get X-rays done . So , here we go ,

01:04:33.629 --> 01:04:35.796
we trek back down to Pyongyang , which

01:04:35.796 --> 01:04:37.962
is , you know , day , day and a half ,

01:04:37.962 --> 01:04:40.129
2 day ride . I can't remember . We get

01:04:40.129 --> 01:04:42.296
to this hospital and the hospital is .

01:04:42.520 --> 01:04:46.149
A gray colored building that you don't

01:04:46.149 --> 01:04:48.205
see hardly any windows and it's just

01:04:48.205 --> 01:04:50.350
weird looking . And we go in and they

01:04:50.350 --> 01:04:53.870
take me downstairs to The X-ray

01:04:54.610 --> 01:04:56.499
room and it's like a dungeon . It

01:04:56.499 --> 01:04:58.510
really was and it it reminded me of

01:04:58.510 --> 01:05:02.310
something in the 40s and 50s of maybe

01:05:02.310 --> 01:05:04.366
Castle Greysto if anybody knows what

01:05:04.366 --> 01:05:06.750
you know that . And so you walk in and

01:05:06.750 --> 01:05:08.694
they have , they have equipment in

01:05:08.694 --> 01:05:10.806
there that was nothing that you would

01:05:10.806 --> 01:05:13.925
ever imagine um . It it when they

01:05:13.925 --> 01:05:16.415
turned it on , the power was so much

01:05:16.415 --> 01:05:18.844
that it all the lights and electricity

01:05:18.844 --> 01:05:20.844
went out everywhere else because it

01:05:20.844 --> 01:05:22.955
drew so much power from me . It was ,

01:05:22.955 --> 01:05:25.122
it was , it was unreal but yeah , that

01:05:25.122 --> 01:05:27.233
was some of the medical uh treatments

01:05:27.233 --> 01:05:29.177
that we had just in case something

01:05:29.177 --> 01:05:31.400
happened . must be still while you have

01:05:31.400 --> 01:05:33.622
a little hitch in your giddy up , huh ?

01:05:36.350 --> 01:05:38.517
All right guys , in the last couple of

01:05:38.517 --> 01:05:40.628
minutes here before we uh wrap things

01:05:40.628 --> 01:05:42.794
up , um , I just wanna say that , uh ,

01:05:42.794 --> 01:05:44.899
as we've all strived to positively

01:05:44.899 --> 01:05:47.010
affect the lives of the families that

01:05:47.010 --> 01:05:49.340
we serve in this mission , I'm certain ,

01:05:49.439 --> 01:05:51.439
um , that your lives have also been

01:05:51.439 --> 01:05:53.889
affected uh by doing this work and ,

01:05:54.050 --> 01:05:56.379
and certainly by having the opportunity

01:05:56.379 --> 01:05:58.790
to do this work in North Korea . And I

01:05:58.790 --> 01:06:00.957
just ask , uh , open , open floor , is

01:06:00.957 --> 01:06:02.623
there anything else from your

01:06:02.623 --> 01:06:04.790
experience there that , uh , we didn't

01:06:04.790 --> 01:06:07.012
cover today or haven't covered over the

01:06:07.012 --> 01:06:09.012
last couple of conversations , uh ,

01:06:09.012 --> 01:06:11.068
that you would like like to leave us

01:06:11.068 --> 01:06:14.449
with ? You know , I , I ,

01:06:14.850 --> 01:06:17.072
as , as part of the Army team that does

01:06:17.072 --> 01:06:19.530
the , you know , um , that helps DPA do

01:06:19.530 --> 01:06:21.729
the briefings , I sit here and listen

01:06:21.729 --> 01:06:24.530
to a lot of the , uh , the analysts

01:06:24.530 --> 01:06:26.919
that provide you all the data , uh ,

01:06:27.290 --> 01:06:29.370
and we talk about , you know , Huton

01:06:29.370 --> 01:06:31.649
and Chosen , and we talk about the

01:06:31.649 --> 01:06:33.871
terrain and they talk about the camps ,

01:06:33.871 --> 01:06:35.982
they talk about everything . And I do

01:06:35.982 --> 01:06:39.010
remember that um they talked about how

01:06:39.010 --> 01:06:41.232
we were backing out of North Korea . We

01:06:41.232 --> 01:06:43.232
were moving people out in the , the

01:06:43.232 --> 01:06:45.454
roads and everything and I can sit back

01:06:45.454 --> 01:06:47.510
and remember that just thinking that

01:06:47.510 --> 01:06:49.621
the cold weather that we were dealing

01:06:49.621 --> 01:06:51.566
with . It had to be what they were

01:06:51.566 --> 01:06:53.788
dealing with , even worse , right ? You

01:06:53.788 --> 01:06:55.788
know , we see all the fishes in the

01:06:55.788 --> 01:06:55.149
snow when they're when they're

01:06:55.389 --> 01:06:58.169
retreating back out of the chosen . But

01:06:58.169 --> 01:07:00.719
the , the , the terrain has not changed .

01:07:00.929 --> 01:07:03.719
The terrain is exactly the way the

01:07:03.719 --> 01:07:06.280
freaking ball is from what Brad and I ,

01:07:06.290 --> 01:07:08.679
and Chris saw . nothing has changed ,

01:07:08.770 --> 01:07:11.709
um , so yeah , I just . It's still

01:07:11.709 --> 01:07:14.540
there You could , you could look at the

01:07:14.540 --> 01:07:16.762
pictures and in a lot of the books that

01:07:16.762 --> 01:07:18.984
I brought with the terrain features and

01:07:18.984 --> 01:07:21.151
hey this is where this battle happened

01:07:21.151 --> 01:07:23.207
and and here's a picture of it and ,

01:07:23.207 --> 01:07:23.100
and you can still see the same terrain

01:07:23.100 --> 01:07:24.899
features it's , it's that that

01:07:24.899 --> 01:07:27.820
untouched , um particularly up in the

01:07:27.820 --> 01:07:31.540
chosen um I I think that you know

01:07:31.540 --> 01:07:34.110
what has stuck with me is um you know

01:07:34.110 --> 01:07:37.590
this mission . Uh , not just in North

01:07:37.590 --> 01:07:39.701
Korea , but overall the , the mission

01:07:39.701 --> 01:07:42.580
of DPAA has , uh , a very special place

01:07:42.580 --> 01:07:44.699
in my heart . It's one of the most

01:07:44.699 --> 01:07:48.070
rewarding jobs that I've ever had . um ,

01:07:48.139 --> 01:07:50.361
I'm , I'm no longer actively associated

01:07:50.361 --> 01:07:52.417
with it , but I love the job so much

01:07:52.417 --> 01:07:54.750
that I did marry an anthropologist , um .

01:07:55.570 --> 01:07:59.340
So I , I do keep tabs on it and and it

01:07:59.340 --> 01:08:01.507
always has a special place in my heart

01:08:01.507 --> 01:08:03.618
and you know one of the things that I

01:08:03.618 --> 01:08:05.840
know you've heard is the passion of the

01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:08.929
people who have briefed you um today um

01:08:08.929 --> 01:08:12.090
you know Don Barry who uh extremely

01:08:12.090 --> 01:08:15.290
passionate that passion continues every

01:08:15.290 --> 01:08:18.600
day looking for your loved ones and so ,

01:08:18.649 --> 01:08:21.890
um , just know that there's a dedicated

01:08:21.890 --> 01:08:24.112
group of professionals looking to bring

01:08:24.112 --> 01:08:27.330
you all closure . Well , I can't say

01:08:27.330 --> 01:08:29.497
anything better than what Chris said ,

01:08:29.497 --> 01:08:31.663
but , uh , you know , other than the 7

01:08:31.663 --> 01:08:33.774
years I spent with Sil high and the ,

01:08:33.774 --> 01:08:36.209
and the JPAC work . Amazing , um , and

01:08:36.209 --> 01:08:38.419
just the , the mission was incredible

01:08:38.419 --> 01:08:41.649
and I still stay in contact with , uh ,

01:08:41.700 --> 01:08:45.449
great folks from the lab . Completely

01:08:45.449 --> 01:08:47.870
appreciate the importance of this . And

01:08:47.870 --> 01:08:50.092
I'm glad I had the opportunity to go to

01:08:50.092 --> 01:08:52.314
North Korea , um , multiple times and ,

01:08:52.314 --> 01:08:54.203
uh , were I still there , and the

01:08:54.203 --> 01:08:56.509
opportunity would arise again , I'd be

01:08:56.509 --> 01:08:58.970
the first to raise my . I go back

01:08:58.970 --> 01:09:01.081
because , uh , it's super weird , but

01:09:01.081 --> 01:09:03.389
it's , uh . And um

01:09:05.418 --> 01:09:09.259
people That Well ,

01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:11.390
gentlemen , thank you for your time .

01:09:11.390 --> 01:09:13.612
Thank you for your uh uh willingness to

01:09:13.612 --> 01:09:15.890
share your experiences . It's been fun .

01:09:15.890 --> 01:09:15.799
Thank you .

01:09:26.419 --> 01:09:28.379
Franklin , thanks very much for a

01:09:28.379 --> 01:09:31.709
superb facilitation . You know if there

01:09:31.709 --> 01:09:33.765
were one word that would encapsulate

01:09:33.765 --> 01:09:36.109
what you just heard , to me that word

01:09:36.109 --> 01:09:39.849
would be surreal . The dynamic

01:09:39.849 --> 01:09:43.159
you see here is still applied today .

01:09:43.688 --> 01:09:46.199
This is hard work . It's complex work

01:09:46.528 --> 01:09:48.695
it's , you know , with the host nation

01:09:48.695 --> 01:09:50.695
it's in a foreign country , foreign

01:09:50.695 --> 01:09:54.258
language , austere conditions . So it

01:09:54.258 --> 01:09:57.459
takes a leadership team . Led by the

01:09:57.459 --> 01:10:01.430
team leader . Team sergeant as well as .

01:10:02.529 --> 01:10:06.029
The recovery leader They're the

01:10:06.029 --> 01:10:09.459
epitome of what still happens today .

01:10:11.009 --> 01:10:13.231
These three gentlemen continued to give

01:10:13.231 --> 01:10:15.450
back after they left . We were very

01:10:15.450 --> 01:10:17.720
proud of them being alumni . Uh , Brad

01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:20.509
Adams , uh , noted anthropologists ,

01:10:20.689 --> 01:10:22.856
would come back and conduct compensate

01:10:22.856 --> 01:10:26.129
tests for today's anthropologists to

01:10:26.129 --> 01:10:28.569
ensure they were at the top of their

01:10:28.569 --> 01:10:30.759
game . Chris Tarrant , as you heard ,

01:10:31.089 --> 01:10:33.759
came back first Air Force team leader .

01:10:34.899 --> 01:10:38.700
Came back as a major . As you

01:10:38.700 --> 01:10:41.540
heard , Mary's a young a young

01:10:41.540 --> 01:10:45.080
anthropologist Maria Teresa . So that's

01:10:45.080 --> 01:10:48.819
what we call a JPAC power couple . And

01:10:48.830 --> 01:10:52.290
then Tom here . 92 mic

01:10:52.290 --> 01:10:54.512
mortuary affairs specialist , much like

01:10:54.512 --> 01:10:57.060
the sergeant Major , comes back to

01:10:57.060 --> 01:10:59.819
serve in army casualty where he's been

01:10:59.819 --> 01:11:01.330
for many years .

01:11:05.109 --> 01:11:08.500
What they talked to you about . was the

01:11:08.500 --> 01:11:11.500
result of 5 years of turnovers .

01:11:12.399 --> 01:11:14.720
Repatriations by North Korea in the

01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:18.529
early 90s . In the early 90s .

01:11:20.290 --> 01:11:22.179
Working with North Korea on those

01:11:22.179 --> 01:11:25.669
repatriations , we were able to help

01:11:25.669 --> 01:11:27.890
them understand why what these

01:11:27.890 --> 01:11:30.112
gentlemen described to you needed to be

01:11:30.112 --> 01:11:32.850
the next step . That in turn led to the

01:11:32.850 --> 01:11:36.790
very first excavation . JRO recovery

01:11:36.790 --> 01:11:39.470
operation in 1996 .

01:11:41.589 --> 01:11:45.330
That happened for 10 years . We

01:11:45.330 --> 01:11:47.330
progressively learned from those 10

01:11:47.330 --> 01:11:51.140
years . It got better . The

01:11:51.140 --> 01:11:53.140
lessons learned that they applied .

01:11:54.490 --> 01:11:57.879
were given to their successors . So

01:11:57.879 --> 01:12:01.109
that by time by 2005 , it is a

01:12:01.720 --> 01:12:03.839
very effective , very efficient .

01:12:04.750 --> 01:12:07.370
Operation All because of the

01:12:07.370 --> 01:12:11.060
foundational work that they did . That

01:12:11.060 --> 01:12:13.390
ended in 2005 . Fast forward the next

01:12:13.390 --> 01:12:15.446
time North Korea wants to talk about

01:12:15.709 --> 01:12:19.580
JRO's 2011 . It took

01:12:19.580 --> 01:12:23.419
us 1.5 , 2 years . we finally nailed

01:12:23.419 --> 01:12:26.220
down the negotiations to go back in

01:12:26.220 --> 01:12:30.049
2012 . And then that gets derailed .

01:12:32.310 --> 01:12:34.229
Fast forward , the very next time

01:12:34.229 --> 01:12:37.770
they're open to talking about JROs is ,

01:12:37.790 --> 01:12:41.770
as you know , 2018 . To face

01:12:41.770 --> 01:12:44.890
to face meetings . Times have changed .

01:12:47.080 --> 01:12:50.549
While the landscape The situations that

01:12:50.549 --> 01:12:52.716
they encounter may still be the same .

01:12:53.660 --> 01:12:55.882
We think it's different in the terms in

01:12:55.882 --> 01:12:57.827
terms of what we're able to do and

01:12:57.827 --> 01:13:00.359
achieve with the North Koreans . Again ,

01:13:00.439 --> 01:13:03.759
that those 2011 negotiations were

01:13:03.759 --> 01:13:06.879
fruitful . It led to an agreement being

01:13:06.879 --> 01:13:10.870
signed . The two face the meetings we

01:13:10.870 --> 01:13:13.379
had with them in 2018 were fruitful .

01:13:14.540 --> 01:13:16.890
Unfortunately , as you heard earlier ,

01:13:16.899 --> 01:13:18.843
a word that was used is episodic .

01:13:20.089 --> 01:13:22.145
There's nothing more episodic . I'll

01:13:22.145 --> 01:13:24.256
leave you one more vignette . I think

01:13:24.256 --> 01:13:26.367
you can gather how surreal it was for

01:13:26.367 --> 01:13:28.311
them . We were mindful back then .

01:13:30.180 --> 01:13:32.799
It's not anything against gender , but

01:13:33.370 --> 01:13:37.149
the end of 10 years of JROs . We only

01:13:37.149 --> 01:13:41.109
sent men forward civilian military . We

01:13:41.109 --> 01:13:43.165
are purposeful , we're mindful about

01:13:43.165 --> 01:13:46.600
that . Fast forward 2018 ,

01:13:46.970 --> 01:13:49.129
they say 55 boxes come get them in

01:13:49.129 --> 01:13:51.450
Wasson International Airport . Again ,

01:13:51.569 --> 01:13:54.569
being mindful , times have changed for

01:13:54.569 --> 01:13:58.000
scientists we send . Three women

01:14:00.620 --> 01:14:02.839
We told the Air Force , the C-17 crew

01:14:02.839 --> 01:14:05.060
that took the team in , what we were

01:14:05.060 --> 01:14:07.339
doing . Air Force was also mindful ,

01:14:07.660 --> 01:14:10.740
the entire C-17 crew , all women .

01:14:12.939 --> 01:14:14.272
So times have changed .

01:14:19.169 --> 01:14:20.836
But if not for the tremendous

01:14:20.836 --> 01:14:23.058
leadership that each of these gentlemen

01:14:23.058 --> 01:14:25.540
showed back in the early days that we

01:14:25.540 --> 01:14:27.596
were able to build upon , and by the

01:14:27.596 --> 01:14:30.459
way , we have a concept plan just as we

01:14:30.459 --> 01:14:32.859
presented in 2012 , just as we

01:14:32.859 --> 01:14:36.020
presented in 2018 , ready to go , two

01:14:36.020 --> 01:14:39.850
teams . 4 times a year we have

01:14:39.850 --> 01:14:42.089
that con plan ready to go , ready to

01:14:42.089 --> 01:14:44.439
implement just as these gentlemen did .

01:14:44.649 --> 01:14:46.816
Gentlemen , thanks very much . Welcome

01:14:46.816 --> 01:14:49.939
back . Thank you very much .

01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:55.680
Thank you . Great , thanks a lot .