WEBVTT 00:05.079 --> 00:07.246 Well , hello from home , fellows . I'm 00:07.246 --> 00:09.412 Colonel CJ Kirkpatrick , Commander Ops 00:09.412 --> 00:11.523 Group here at the Joint Multinational 00:11.523 --> 00:11.439 Readiness Center , and I commands are 00:11.439 --> 00:13.550 Major Christopher Donaldson , the ops 00:13.550 --> 00:15.272 Group CSM . And welcome to the 00:15.272 --> 00:17.550 inaugural episode of Forging the Sword , 00:17.550 --> 00:19.606 which is our , uh , uh , our channel 00:19.606 --> 00:21.717 here at JMRC where we intend to share 00:21.717 --> 00:23.883 best practices , lessons learned , and 00:23.883 --> 00:26.106 innovative things that we're seeing out 00:26.106 --> 00:28.328 of the force as they fight to train and 00:28.328 --> 00:28.069 win and let's go large scale combat 00:28.069 --> 00:30.229 operations here in the , uh , here at 00:30.229 --> 00:32.790 the , the JMRC , the United States only 00:32.790 --> 00:35.123 forward deployed combat training center . 00:35.123 --> 00:37.290 What we're gonna cover today is really 00:37.290 --> 00:39.290 our , our top 10 observations we've 00:39.290 --> 00:41.401 seen from the BCTs we've trained here 00:41.401 --> 00:43.512 at JMRC over the last 2 years . These 00:43.512 --> 00:45.679 observations are persistent , uh , for 00:45.679 --> 00:47.846 all formations and also capture things 00:47.846 --> 00:50.012 that we need to continue to improve on 00:50.012 --> 00:49.845 and also just brigade struggling to 00:49.845 --> 00:52.178 deal with new , uh , new changes in the , 00:52.365 --> 00:54.309 uh , in the character of war as we 00:54.309 --> 00:56.143 integrate new technology and new 00:56.143 --> 00:58.310 techniques . So I think to really get 00:58.310 --> 01:00.477 this started , I think our first topic 01:00.477 --> 01:02.477 is the use of standardized fighting 01:02.477 --> 01:04.643 products . It's , it's something we've 01:04.643 --> 01:06.643 all done and seen but we always see 01:06.643 --> 01:09.059 brigades struggle with so in in . How , 01:09.069 --> 01:11.180 how do you think that we can best get 01:11.180 --> 01:13.291 after the , the standardized fighting 01:13.291 --> 01:15.513 products ? No , absolutely , so because 01:15.513 --> 01:17.736 I think , um , so standardized fighting 01:17.736 --> 01:17.260 products , this is one of those old 01:17.260 --> 01:19.204 things , the brigades , I think in 01:19.204 --> 01:21.316 every formation and echelon struggles 01:21.316 --> 01:23.427 with , uh , how do you build products 01:23.427 --> 01:25.538 that enable shared understanding to . 01:25.538 --> 01:27.427 Describe an end state and provide 01:27.427 --> 01:27.279 direction through coordination and 01:27.279 --> 01:29.870 synchronization rapidly and effectively , 01:29.959 --> 01:32.319 uh , under , under pressure in the rain 01:32.319 --> 01:34.541 in the dark , uh , because , you know , 01:34.541 --> 01:36.550 uh , for , for the , the , the time 01:36.550 --> 01:38.772 that brigades have been fighting , time 01:38.772 --> 01:40.772 is always the enemy . You're always 01:40.772 --> 01:42.828 gonna run out of time , um , so what 01:42.828 --> 01:42.730 we've seen that I think is the best 01:42.730 --> 01:45.160 practice here at JMRC . Is brigades , 01:45.459 --> 01:47.570 successful brigades generally come up 01:47.570 --> 01:49.348 with about 10 fighting products 01:49.348 --> 01:51.403 depending on the kind of operation , 01:51.403 --> 01:53.459 but 10 fighting products uh that are 01:53.459 --> 01:55.459 simple , easily produced , commonly 01:55.459 --> 01:55.339 understood , and rapidly dis 01:55.610 --> 01:57.721 disseminated are the key to success . 01:57.930 --> 01:59.986 So first and foremost , uh , we need 01:59.986 --> 02:02.097 brigades to be able to produce a task 02:02.097 --> 02:03.986 organization , uh , paired with a 02:03.986 --> 02:06.263 useful combat power tracking mechanism , 02:06.263 --> 02:08.486 right ? So it's not just the , the task 02:08.486 --> 02:10.708 organization line of block chart , it's 02:10.708 --> 02:12.819 paired with how we're gonna track our 02:12.819 --> 02:14.708 combat power , uh , in our common 02:14.708 --> 02:14.630 operational picture in our talks and 02:14.630 --> 02:16.797 mission command nodes from brigade all 02:16.797 --> 02:18.963 the way down at company level . Second 02:18.963 --> 02:21.070 is an execution or synchronization 02:21.070 --> 02:25.029 matrix uh that maintains a common uh 02:25.029 --> 02:27.140 that maintains common synchronization 02:27.140 --> 02:29.307 and coordination of the war of all the 02:29.307 --> 02:31.362 war fighting functions to achieve an 02:31.362 --> 02:33.418 end state , right ? So the commander 02:33.418 --> 02:33.229 gives his intent . We've got a concept 02:33.229 --> 02:35.451 of the operation , but the hard part is 02:35.451 --> 02:37.673 synchronizing all that stuff usually on 02:37.673 --> 02:39.840 an Excel spreadsheet , lots of ways to 02:39.840 --> 02:41.896 do it , but we've got to synchronize 02:41.896 --> 02:43.896 all those war fighting functions to 02:43.896 --> 02:45.951 achieve , to combine arms to achieve 02:45.951 --> 02:45.270 what the commander sees as the end 02:45.270 --> 02:47.789 state . The third thing , um , that , 02:47.910 --> 02:49.949 that , uh , uh , brigades need to 02:49.949 --> 02:51.782 continue to work on is is shared 02:51.782 --> 02:53.789 operational graphical overlays that 02:53.789 --> 02:56.011 develop common understanding of fires , 02:56.011 --> 02:58.067 maneuver , sustainment , and mission 02:58.067 --> 03:00.400 command . All four of those things , uh , 03:00.400 --> 03:02.289 really need to be captured on our 03:02.289 --> 03:04.456 operational overlay to best understand 03:04.456 --> 03:06.067 how we're gonna arrange that 03:06.067 --> 03:08.178 synchronization matrix that we talked 03:08.178 --> 03:10.400 about , which is arranges resources and 03:10.400 --> 03:12.511 time . Our operational graphics allow 03:12.511 --> 03:14.789 us to arrange those resources in space . 03:14.789 --> 03:17.067 The two together achieve those effects . 03:17.067 --> 03:19.122 Um , the fourth thing is really just 03:19.122 --> 03:21.345 the laundry list of fires products that 03:21.345 --> 03:23.178 brigades must , must , uh , must 03:23.178 --> 03:25.289 produce . Uh , fires is a science and 03:25.289 --> 03:27.233 if we're trying to fight without a 03:27.233 --> 03:26.929 target list , we , we must have a 03:26.929 --> 03:28.830 target list worksheet , a target 03:28.830 --> 03:31.110 synchronization matrix , a fire support 03:31.110 --> 03:33.332 execution matrix that includes our high 03:33.332 --> 03:35.509 payoff target list , uh , our attack 03:35.509 --> 03:37.342 guidance matrix , and our target 03:37.342 --> 03:39.509 selection standard , often referred to 03:39.509 --> 03:41.731 those three things as hat . Uh , but if 03:41.731 --> 03:43.898 we don't have those key fires products 03:43.898 --> 03:45.620 that are a product of , uh , a 03:45.620 --> 03:47.565 targeting process , then we're not 03:47.565 --> 03:49.731 gonna be able to use our most casualty 03:49.731 --> 03:49.360 producing weapon , which is our 03:49.360 --> 03:51.471 indirect fire , uh , to achieve those 03:51.471 --> 03:54.009 effects and defeat the enemy . Uh , the 03:54.009 --> 03:56.231 fifth thing , um , that we need to , we 03:56.231 --> 03:58.231 wanna see brigades or best practice 03:58.231 --> 04:00.453 we've seen is , uh , a well thought out 04:00.453 --> 04:02.880 decision support matrix and template . 04:02.889 --> 04:04.945 So decision support matrix , a clear 04:04.945 --> 04:07.167 output of the planning process , not an 04:07.167 --> 04:09.389 afterthought , not something that's put 04:09.389 --> 04:11.445 together during orders protection in 04:11.445 --> 04:13.556 the last step of MDMP , but something 04:13.556 --> 04:12.970 that's built towards throughout the 04:12.970 --> 04:15.410 MDMP process , uh , you know , there's , 04:15.449 --> 04:17.727 uh , there's doctrine on it , but , uh , 04:17.727 --> 04:19.949 generally speaking , a decision support 04:19.949 --> 04:22.709 matrix that . Focus on PIR if uh and 04:22.709 --> 04:25.630 then the FFIR right , so PRR priority 04:25.630 --> 04:27.741 intelligence requirements , the enemy 04:27.741 --> 04:29.852 is where we think they are doing what 04:29.852 --> 04:31.741 we thought they would do and FFIR 04:31.741 --> 04:33.963 friendly forces are where we think they 04:33.963 --> 04:36.019 are , where we wanted them to be and 04:36.019 --> 04:38.186 able to do what we wanted them to do , 04:38.186 --> 04:40.241 then we make a decision that usually 04:40.241 --> 04:41.852 results in . Um , seizing an 04:41.852 --> 04:44.074 opportunity and destroying or defeating 04:44.074 --> 04:46.241 the enemy or mitigating risk by taking 04:46.241 --> 04:48.352 some action , uh , but executing that 04:48.352 --> 04:50.519 properly , uh , as an output of MDMP , 04:50.519 --> 04:52.686 not as an afterthought , paired with a 04:52.686 --> 04:52.100 template to show us where it's gonna 04:52.100 --> 04:54.267 happen on the map is absolutely a best 04:54.267 --> 04:56.378 practice , and I think one thing with 04:56.378 --> 04:58.720 all that , sir , is . Where we see the 04:58.720 --> 05:00.942 unit struggle with is they're coming in 05:00.942 --> 05:02.942 here , they're trying to figure out 05:02.942 --> 05:05.109 what their fighting products are gonna 05:05.109 --> 05:07.442 be , and it just really throws them off , 05:07.442 --> 05:06.519 which I think kind of leads into our 05:06.519 --> 05:08.463 next topic , which is really again 05:08.463 --> 05:10.630 after that time management piece . And 05:10.630 --> 05:12.630 if you don't have your standardized 05:12.630 --> 05:14.686 fighting products , it , it's really 05:14.686 --> 05:16.852 gonna hurt you . When we'll talk about 05:16.852 --> 05:18.963 this next topic , so , uh , it's some 05:18.963 --> 05:21.130 major , I think after decision support 05:21.130 --> 05:23.186 matrix and template , uh , the , you 05:23.186 --> 05:23.154 know , the other thing that we , we 05:23.154 --> 05:25.315 wanna see units able to produce is a 05:25.315 --> 05:27.093 clear enemy set temp which is a 05:27.093 --> 05:29.204 stationary snapshot of where we think 05:29.204 --> 05:31.426 the enemy is gonna be at a given , uh , 05:31.426 --> 05:33.204 place and time . Based on their 05:33.204 --> 05:35.426 decisions and what they wanna do and an 05:35.426 --> 05:37.148 event tip right that that that 05:37.148 --> 05:39.148 animation of how the enemy is gonna 05:39.148 --> 05:41.371 move from phase line blue to phase line 05:41.371 --> 05:41.190 red to try to achieve effects on us , 05:41.399 --> 05:43.621 so understanding where we think they're 05:43.621 --> 05:45.732 gonna be and what they're gonna do is 05:45.732 --> 05:47.788 absolutely essential , uh , and from 05:47.788 --> 05:49.955 that that should drive our information 05:49.955 --> 05:51.843 collection , uh , synchronization 05:51.843 --> 05:54.066 matrix , right ? So our IC matrix , how 05:54.066 --> 05:53.959 we're gonna apply our reconnaissance 05:53.959 --> 05:56.839 capability or , uh , any sensing or any 05:56.839 --> 05:58.880 end or how we're gonna ask our 05:58.880 --> 06:01.047 headquarters for any sort of in . Uh , 06:01.047 --> 06:03.158 to help confirm or deny that set temp 06:03.158 --> 06:05.158 that we have to confirm or deny the 06:05.158 --> 06:07.380 event temp is happening the way we want 06:07.380 --> 06:09.436 it to happen , um , that is a key to 06:09.436 --> 06:11.491 success , uh , and the 8th thing our 06:11.491 --> 06:13.602 major that we , we , uh , always hope 06:13.602 --> 06:15.436 brigades achieve is , uh , clear 06:15.436 --> 06:17.213 commanders critical information 06:17.213 --> 06:19.269 requirements , CCIR that consists of 06:19.269 --> 06:20.991 both PIR , right ? So priority 06:20.991 --> 06:22.936 intelligence requirements and FFIR 06:22.936 --> 06:25.269 friendly force information requirements . 06:25.269 --> 06:27.324 As I said earlier , those two things 06:27.324 --> 06:29.547 generally should be working together to 06:29.547 --> 06:31.824 drive our decision support matrix . Uh , 06:31.824 --> 06:33.991 a night thing that we , um , uh , uh , 06:33.991 --> 06:36.102 added to the list I mentioned because 06:36.102 --> 06:38.158 frankly , um , there used to only be 06:38.158 --> 06:37.929 about 8 things on here , but with , 06:38.019 --> 06:40.130 with UAS that I know we're gonna talk 06:40.130 --> 06:42.260 about a lot today . With all the UAS 06:42.260 --> 06:44.427 systems that brigades have now and the 06:44.427 --> 06:46.660 ability to manage that airspace , we 06:46.660 --> 06:48.716 need to see a clear understanding of 06:48.716 --> 06:50.549 airspace management and airspace 06:50.549 --> 06:52.382 control and airspace command and 06:52.382 --> 06:54.438 control overlay to manage that third 06:54.438 --> 06:57.049 dimension as we navigate all these UAS 06:57.049 --> 06:59.105 from ground level up to whatever our 06:59.105 --> 07:01.420 coordinating altitude is as we bring in 07:01.420 --> 07:03.587 manned aviation and then the Air Force 07:03.587 --> 07:05.587 above that . Um , and then the last 07:05.587 --> 07:07.642 thingared really , you know , this , 07:07.642 --> 07:09.476 this , I think this applies both 07:09.476 --> 07:11.587 defense and offense . Uh , you've got 07:11.587 --> 07:13.587 to have a good common understanding 07:13.587 --> 07:13.299 where your obstacles are . So modified 07:13.299 --> 07:15.450 combined obstacle overlay . Uh , both 07:15.450 --> 07:17.617 when you come out of the defense , you 07:17.617 --> 07:19.950 understand what what you have to breach , 07:19.950 --> 07:19.850 what's in front of you , or even when 07:19.850 --> 07:21.906 you're on the attack , understanding 07:21.906 --> 07:24.128 what's behind you or what the enemy may 07:24.128 --> 07:26.350 be having in front of you , um , having 07:26.350 --> 07:28.683 a clear understanding of that M or , uh , 07:28.683 --> 07:28.649 excuse me , the modified combined 07:28.649 --> 07:30.700 obstacle overlay , uh , is critical 07:30.700 --> 07:32.756 success because otherwise you'll get 07:32.756 --> 07:34.811 stuck in your own stuff and not just 07:34.811 --> 07:36.978 not be maneuverable . Yes sir , so I , 07:36.978 --> 07:38.922 I think you know talking about all 07:38.922 --> 07:41.144 those fighting products where we really 07:41.144 --> 07:41.040 see the brigade struggle when they get 07:41.040 --> 07:44.160 into that MDMP is do they have all 07:44.160 --> 07:46.104 these SOPs and have those fighting 07:46.104 --> 07:48.160 products and it really kind of leads 07:48.160 --> 07:50.216 into our , our next topic that we're 07:50.216 --> 07:52.216 gonna really deep dive into is that 07:52.216 --> 07:54.216 time management . If you don't have 07:54.216 --> 07:56.327 your fighting products , you're gonna 07:56.327 --> 07:56.269 struggle with that time management , 07:56.350 --> 07:58.350 whether it's the rehearsals and all 07:58.350 --> 08:00.461 that , which we we're gonna really go 08:00.461 --> 08:02.683 into next . Yeah , absolutely . I think 08:02.683 --> 08:04.906 before we go to the next one , the um . 08:04.906 --> 08:07.128 I think you , you nailed something very 08:07.128 --> 08:07.000 important is you gotta have that stuff 08:07.000 --> 08:09.222 built before you get to the CTC and you 08:09.222 --> 08:11.390 gotta practice with it beyond . Um , 08:11.720 --> 08:13.887 you know , during , during your , uh , 08:13.887 --> 08:15.664 uh , mission command validation 08:15.664 --> 08:17.887 exercise , uh , very simple , uh , well 08:17.887 --> 08:20.220 built products that are ruthlessly , uh , 08:20.220 --> 08:22.387 repeated in training events is the key 08:22.387 --> 08:24.331 to success and also just as key as 08:24.331 --> 08:26.331 recognizing when you're deviating . 08:26.331 --> 08:26.119 It's bound to happen that your plan is 08:26.119 --> 08:28.286 not gonna work , so understanding when 08:28.286 --> 08:30.452 you're losing that standardization and 08:30.452 --> 08:32.563 you're able to bring the organization 08:32.563 --> 08:34.786 back to a standardized format , uh , is 08:34.786 --> 08:37.008 absolutely critical . OK , so I haven't 08:37.008 --> 08:39.175 talked about standardized products and 08:39.175 --> 08:41.341 how brigades have to produce those and 08:41.341 --> 08:40.429 be able to fight . The other thing that 08:40.429 --> 08:42.540 really I think brigades struggle with 08:42.540 --> 08:44.762 our major is figuring out how to manage 08:44.762 --> 08:46.985 time , uh , here at JMRC . Absolutely , 08:47.030 --> 08:49.086 sir . I think , you know , we always 08:49.086 --> 08:51.308 think about that 1/3 , 2/3s rule bit we 08:51.308 --> 08:53.641 really need to get beyond and pass that . 08:53.641 --> 08:55.308 When are we doing our our our 08:55.308 --> 08:56.974 rehearsals ? Are we executing 08:56.974 --> 08:58.808 rehearsals in the daytime or the 08:58.808 --> 09:00.808 nighttime , especially when you get 09:00.808 --> 09:02.974 down to that platoon level . So really 09:02.974 --> 09:02.390 understanding how to manage our time 09:02.390 --> 09:04.223 properly , I think is one of the 09:04.223 --> 09:06.279 biggest things we see units struggle 09:06.279 --> 09:08.612 with . No , absolutely , and I think we , 09:08.612 --> 09:10.779 we talk , you know , I , um , we often 09:10.779 --> 09:10.590 talk about the whole timeline , but 09:10.590 --> 09:12.701 it's also has to come with , uh , how 09:12.701 --> 09:14.757 you manage those three time horizons 09:14.757 --> 09:16.812 because you're , you've conducted an 09:16.812 --> 09:18.701 operation which has affected your 09:18.701 --> 09:20.701 combat power and your ability to do 09:20.701 --> 09:20.549 things that's in the past . You have to 09:20.549 --> 09:22.605 manage your present , which is where 09:22.605 --> 09:24.549 we're trying to get those platoons 09:24.549 --> 09:24.229 where they can rehearse in the daylight , 09:24.549 --> 09:26.660 uh , and then you have to think about 09:26.660 --> 09:26.619 the future because you've got an 09:26.619 --> 09:28.730 operation that you're gonna conduct , 09:28.730 --> 09:30.786 uh , once , uh , after this one , so 09:30.786 --> 09:32.730 managing those three separate time 09:32.730 --> 09:34.397 horizons , uh , is also super 09:34.397 --> 09:36.563 challenging . Um , but I think it ties 09:36.563 --> 09:38.619 back to that standardization of , of 09:38.619 --> 09:40.619 our common products to promote that 09:40.619 --> 09:42.730 time management . Well , I think with 09:42.730 --> 09:44.952 the time management too is what type of 09:44.952 --> 09:44.380 rehearsal are we actually trying to get 09:44.380 --> 09:46.602 after , and that can help drive some of 09:46.602 --> 09:48.769 that time management and how we really 09:48.769 --> 09:50.929 look at using that time wisely , uh , 09:50.940 --> 09:52.940 or are we doing a rock drill are we 09:52.940 --> 09:55.080 doing a map ? Recon or or we're just 09:55.080 --> 09:57.191 talking about it is really gonna help 09:57.320 --> 09:59.320 drive some of that with the time 09:59.320 --> 10:01.376 management . No , absolutely , and I 10:01.376 --> 10:03.487 think , uh , before you even do those 10:03.487 --> 10:05.653 rehearsals or as you prepare for those 10:05.653 --> 10:07.876 rehearsals , it's known simply just how 10:07.876 --> 10:10.042 long things take . If , if , uh , JMRC 10:10.042 --> 10:12.042 or any CTC is the first time you're 10:12.042 --> 10:14.264 really thinking about how long it takes 10:14.264 --> 10:14.229 a dismountable platoon to move 5 10:14.229 --> 10:16.340 kilometers and limited visibility and 10:16.340 --> 10:18.562 severely restricted terrain or how long 10:18.562 --> 10:20.789 it's gonna take to execute , uh , LRP 10:20.789 --> 10:23.526 uh , under MP 4 . Uh , or how long it's 10:23.526 --> 10:25.846 gonna take for guns to move , uh , 6 10:25.846 --> 10:28.068 kilometers and get in position ready to 10:28.068 --> 10:30.290 fire , uh , daylight or night . Uh , if 10:30.290 --> 10:32.457 you haven't thought about those things 10:32.457 --> 10:32.085 and kind of built it in your running 10:32.085 --> 10:33.974 estimates , and it's difficult to 10:33.974 --> 10:35.863 manage those time horizons . It's 10:35.863 --> 10:38.029 difficult to manage your time and it's 10:38.029 --> 10:40.085 difficult to rehearse well , um , so 10:40.085 --> 10:39.606 you gotta practice that stuff before 10:39.606 --> 10:41.606 you come here and just simply run a 10:41.606 --> 10:43.717 stopwatch and get a sense of how long 10:43.717 --> 10:45.495 it takes for things to happen . 10:45.495 --> 10:47.550 Absolutely agree , sir . Uh , so for 10:47.550 --> 10:49.662 the , the third thing I think we need 10:49.662 --> 10:51.773 to really discuss is the fires , um , 10:51.773 --> 10:51.046 how , how are we going after that . 10:51.142 --> 10:52.864 Targeting process . What's our 10:52.864 --> 10:54.809 sensitive shooter looking like the 10:54.809 --> 10:56.975 digital versus analog and are we doing 10:56.975 --> 10:59.142 the technical rehearsals ? I think are 10:59.142 --> 11:01.309 some of the biggest things we see with 11:01.309 --> 11:03.253 units when talking about the fires 11:03.253 --> 11:05.420 enterprise . No , absolutely . I think 11:05.420 --> 11:07.475 lack of effective targeting , overly 11:07.475 --> 11:07.411 complicated sensor to shooter kill 11:07.411 --> 11:09.692 chains , uh , low proficiency and 11:09.692 --> 11:13.211 digital fires and use ofAs , and a lack 11:13.211 --> 11:14.933 of properly executed technical 11:14.933 --> 11:16.989 rehearsals are common pitfalls for , 11:16.989 --> 11:18.878 for BCTs training here at JMRC or 11:18.878 --> 11:21.090 really any CTC . Uh , I think the 11:21.090 --> 11:23.146 target effectively command the first 11:23.146 --> 11:25.146 and foremost commanders have got to 11:25.146 --> 11:27.090 establish clear fires guidance and 11:27.090 --> 11:29.146 prioritization through well executed 11:29.146 --> 11:31.090 targeting working group and target 11:31.090 --> 11:33.257 decision board usually organized along 11:33.257 --> 11:35.650 the decide deliver or excuse me , the 11:35.650 --> 11:38.039 detect decide deliver and assess or D3A 11:38.039 --> 11:40.570 framework . So I , I think one thing 11:40.570 --> 11:43.409 that we talk about a lot in the fires 11:43.409 --> 11:46.130 is that kill chain or are we making 11:46.130 --> 11:48.241 things longer or we shorten that kill 11:48.241 --> 11:50.186 chain and . You know what are your 11:50.186 --> 11:52.869 thoughts on how we can best get after 11:52.869 --> 11:55.091 that and shorten down that kill chain ? 11:55.369 --> 11:57.536 Well , I think , I mean absolutely you 11:57.536 --> 11:59.702 you've got to figure out from from who 11:59.702 --> 12:01.925 sees the enemy to have when we're gonna 12:01.925 --> 12:01.919 pull a lanyard to execute some sort of 12:01.919 --> 12:04.141 lethal effect , how do you make that as 12:04.141 --> 12:06.308 quick as possible ? Uh , it's not just 12:06.308 --> 12:08.530 about reducing the number of people who 12:08.530 --> 12:10.752 touch it , it's expediting the way that 12:10.752 --> 12:12.863 information flows , um , so the . The 12:12.863 --> 12:15.086 only way to get past that is , is thing 12:15.086 --> 12:14.989 number one , we've got to practice that 12:15.289 --> 12:17.456 um through our digital fires processes 12:17.456 --> 12:19.289 and you make AAADS work for us . 12:19.289 --> 12:21.710 actually fill out our AAA AATAS 12:21.710 --> 12:23.750 database that allows us to rapidly 12:23.750 --> 12:25.806 process fire emissions in accordance 12:25.806 --> 12:27.639 with the prioritization . And in 12:27.639 --> 12:29.694 accordance with the rules that we've 12:29.694 --> 12:31.750 set up , uh , if that's , if that is 12:31.750 --> 12:33.972 understood before you get here and it's 12:33.972 --> 12:33.820 practiced relentlessly and ruthlessly , 12:34.030 --> 12:35.919 um , then you're able to actually 12:35.919 --> 12:38.141 execute a clean , quick , sensor sensor 12:38.141 --> 12:40.141 shooter kill chain and apply lethal 12:40.141 --> 12:42.308 effects . I , I completely agree . I , 12:42.308 --> 12:44.530 I think one thing that kind of leads to 12:44.530 --> 12:46.474 is that HPTL , you know , where we 12:46.474 --> 12:48.641 actually get after our HPTL or we just 12:48.641 --> 12:50.808 shooting random targets . Now , we see 12:50.808 --> 12:52.919 that a lot our major is , um , uh , a 12:52.919 --> 12:54.919 lot of , lot of , uh , decisions to 12:54.919 --> 12:57.030 just kill what we can find as opposed 12:57.030 --> 12:59.197 to killing what we want . Um , clearly 12:59.197 --> 12:58.940 understanding this , you know , what I 12:58.940 --> 13:01.107 previously talked about all those fire 13:01.107 --> 13:02.884 support , uh , fire support and 13:02.884 --> 13:04.940 synchronization tools , having those 13:04.940 --> 13:07.051 understood stood from the very top of 13:07.051 --> 13:09.218 the brigade and the 5 cord all the way 13:09.218 --> 13:08.979 down to our observers , so we 13:08.979 --> 13:11.146 understand what we're trying to kill , 13:11.146 --> 13:13.312 and when we're trying to kill it . And 13:13.312 --> 13:13.130 the best way to to kind of level the 13:13.130 --> 13:14.852 bubble and make sure everybody 13:14.852 --> 13:16.963 understands that is really the key is 13:16.963 --> 13:19.130 to execute a , a , a well uh execute a 13:19.130 --> 13:21.297 technical fires rehearsal . Um , we're 13:21.297 --> 13:23.510 exercising the actual observer , uh , 13:23.520 --> 13:25.187 plan through the actual comms 13:25.187 --> 13:27.187 architecture in real time to really 13:27.187 --> 13:29.242 dial in how we're gonna apply lethal 13:29.242 --> 13:31.353 effects in accordance with their HPTL 13:31.353 --> 13:33.631 and . Actually have quick fires . Yeah , 13:33.631 --> 13:35.798 I , I think what we're really starting 13:35.798 --> 13:37.742 to see change and shape the buyers 13:37.742 --> 13:39.909 industry right now is , you know , all 13:39.909 --> 13:41.964 the use of the UAS or or units using 13:41.964 --> 13:44.131 this to go into their HPTL and it goes 13:44.131 --> 13:45.964 back to what you're kind of just 13:45.964 --> 13:47.798 talking about is , or we're just 13:47.798 --> 13:49.853 shooting that but do we need to make 13:49.853 --> 13:52.076 sure our fire plan is kind of tied in . 13:52.076 --> 13:54.131 You know , when you start looking at 13:54.131 --> 13:53.299 all the different war fighting 13:53.299 --> 13:55.500 functions with our UAS , how do we tie 13:55.500 --> 13:57.333 that into the fires piece ? No , 13:57.340 --> 13:59.451 absolutely , sir . I think it's the , 13:59.451 --> 14:00.951 um , you know , we see the 14:00.951 --> 14:03.169 proliferation of UAS um with brigades 14:03.169 --> 14:05.169 coming through JMRC and really it's 14:05.169 --> 14:07.280 just the direction the army's going . 14:07.280 --> 14:09.280 Um , how do you identify how you're 14:09.280 --> 14:11.169 going to execute your information 14:11.169 --> 14:13.280 collection plan to observe . Areas of 14:13.280 --> 14:15.502 interest that should trigger actions to 14:15.502 --> 14:17.558 execute targeted areas of interest , 14:17.558 --> 14:19.780 then there's a math problem there units 14:19.780 --> 14:19.760 have to work on , um , but it's a lot 14:19.760 --> 14:21.927 of discipline to actually observe your 14:21.927 --> 14:24.849 NAI , uh , so you could detect and then 14:24.849 --> 14:26.905 once you decide you deliver and then 14:26.905 --> 14:29.000 you assess as opposed to , uh , you 14:29.000 --> 14:31.278 know , when you've got so many sensors , 14:31.278 --> 14:33.444 the options are just almost endless to 14:33.444 --> 14:35.444 go around the battlefield . Of just 14:35.444 --> 14:37.611 trying to find stuff and kill it , but 14:37.611 --> 14:39.833 what we find is units tend to when they 14:39.833 --> 14:39.099 do that they don't actually affect the 14:39.099 --> 14:41.210 enemy , they just kind of annoy him . 14:41.219 --> 14:43.330 So how do we mass effects ? How do we 14:43.330 --> 14:45.460 really pursue our HPTL that requires 14:45.460 --> 14:47.404 just a lot of discipline and again 14:47.404 --> 14:49.571 we've got to rehearse . Well , I think 14:49.571 --> 14:51.627 it also goes back to this is all new 14:51.627 --> 14:51.460 things that we're starting to really 14:51.460 --> 14:53.627 try and test during the transformation 14:53.627 --> 14:56.659 and contact , but How do we make that 14:56.659 --> 14:58.715 sensitive shooter kill chain shorter 14:58.715 --> 15:00.419 with the UAS with all these 15:00.419 --> 15:02.641 capabilities I think is something we've 15:02.641 --> 15:04.697 really got to start focusing in on . 15:04.697 --> 15:04.380 Yeah , and I think there's a lot of 15:04.380 --> 15:06.047 opportunities for brigades to 15:06.047 --> 15:08.269 experiment because there's not a lot of 15:08.269 --> 15:10.380 doctrine that tells us exactly how to 15:10.380 --> 15:12.436 employ UAS . I mean , there's pretty 15:12.436 --> 15:14.491 clear doctrine on , on how we should 15:14.491 --> 15:16.602 link our observer plan uh to actually 15:16.602 --> 15:18.547 applying lethal effects , um , but 15:18.547 --> 15:18.380 there's opportunities to try lots of 15:18.380 --> 15:20.380 new things , and we look forward to 15:20.380 --> 15:22.602 continuing to see units here at JMRC do 15:22.602 --> 15:24.824 just that . Soar majors , we're talking 15:24.824 --> 15:26.436 about , you know , the , the 15:26.436 --> 15:28.324 proliferation of UAS and just the 15:28.324 --> 15:30.380 ability to see so many things on the 15:30.380 --> 15:32.491 battlefield . What comes with that is 15:32.491 --> 15:34.602 really The number 4 trend that we see 15:34.602 --> 15:36.824 here JMRC , which is , which is brigade 15:36.824 --> 15:38.991 struggling with how we process all the 15:38.991 --> 15:40.658 data we have access to is the 15:40.658 --> 15:40.190 headquarters . What are your thoughts 15:40.190 --> 15:42.357 on that ? Yes , sir , uh , I think one 15:42.357 --> 15:44.357 of the biggest things we really see 15:44.357 --> 15:46.079 with that is , you know , data 15:46.079 --> 15:48.023 processing's not new to the army . 15:48.023 --> 15:50.079 We've been doing this for years upon 15:50.079 --> 15:52.246 years , whether it's JBCP , you know , 15:52.246 --> 15:54.468 what we're going to now with the wicker 15:54.468 --> 15:56.690 chats and all that but . You know , are 15:56.690 --> 15:58.801 we actually just processing data , or 15:58.801 --> 16:01.023 are we taking that and actually driving 16:01.023 --> 16:03.246 action with it ? And I , I think that's 16:03.246 --> 16:02.969 where we're really starting to see a 16:02.969 --> 16:04.969 lot of the units struggle is , it's 16:04.969 --> 16:07.289 that data overload that there's so much 16:07.289 --> 16:09.289 just coming in that they just can't 16:09.289 --> 16:11.622 really get down after an action it . um , 16:11.622 --> 16:13.567 and then when you start seeing all 16:13.567 --> 16:15.789 these chats and there's not what , what 16:15.789 --> 16:17.845 we generally used to see back in the 16:17.845 --> 16:19.956 days where , you know , the attention 16:19.956 --> 16:22.122 to talk , everyone knew this is what's 16:22.122 --> 16:21.929 got to happen because something is 16:21.929 --> 16:24.390 driving that . Now it's just Data just 16:24.390 --> 16:26.557 constantly flowing in and trying to go 16:26.557 --> 16:28.390 back through all these chats and 16:28.390 --> 16:30.223 actually find what is it that we 16:30.223 --> 16:32.279 actually need to get after that is I 16:32.279 --> 16:31.890 think one of the biggest things with 16:31.890 --> 16:33.779 data processing . Uh , that we're 16:33.779 --> 16:35.890 seeing as a struggle . No , I agree , 16:35.890 --> 16:38.112 Major . It's , uh , with , with all the 16:38.112 --> 16:40.057 mission command tools that we have 16:40.057 --> 16:42.279 along with the proliferation of sensors 16:42.279 --> 16:44.501 and the multiple forms of it . I mean , 16:44.501 --> 16:46.557 we have more access to SIGINT , uh , 16:46.557 --> 16:48.668 you have EW collection capabilities . 16:48.668 --> 16:48.469 You have echelons above brigade 16:48.469 --> 16:50.802 capabilities that are funneling in , uh , 16:50.802 --> 16:52.802 to your mission command node , um , 16:52.802 --> 16:55.080 whether it be a full motion view video , 16:55.080 --> 16:57.136 uh , GON , all sorts of ins that are 16:57.136 --> 16:59.247 coming in , uh , but all of these are 16:59.247 --> 17:01.469 really small pieces of data and we have 17:01.469 --> 17:03.802 incredibly flat and rapid communication . 17:03.802 --> 17:06.025 Uh , but the , the , the real challenge 17:06.025 --> 17:06.000 is really just our cognitive ability , 17:06.229 --> 17:08.451 uh , to process all that data , turn it 17:08.451 --> 17:10.451 into information and or knowledge , 17:10.451 --> 17:12.507 which are the things that commanders 17:12.507 --> 17:14.729 need to make decisions , um , so it's , 17:14.729 --> 17:16.729 it's , um , you know , the only way 17:16.729 --> 17:18.896 passes , I think , uh , really is , is 17:18.896 --> 17:21.007 a discipline . Standardized reporting 17:21.007 --> 17:23.229 system that we gotta practice before we 17:23.229 --> 17:25.396 come to the JMRC so we can filter this 17:25.396 --> 17:27.562 enormous amount of data and really get 17:27.562 --> 17:29.562 to what matters , which really what 17:29.562 --> 17:31.785 that what that means is we gotta get to 17:31.785 --> 17:31.439 the place where we can take all this 17:31.439 --> 17:33.599 data in as a staff and process it and 17:33.599 --> 17:35.877 we're gonna tell tell where things are , 17:36.520 --> 17:40.160 what they mean . And what we gotta 17:40.160 --> 17:42.160 figure out how to get commanders of 17:42.160 --> 17:44.327 staff to the point where they can tell 17:44.327 --> 17:46.549 where things are , what they mean , and 17:46.549 --> 17:46.189 why they matter . Once we can answer 17:46.189 --> 17:48.245 those three questions , we can apply 17:48.245 --> 17:50.300 effects . I absolutely agree , and I 17:50.300 --> 17:52.189 think one thing that we're really 17:52.189 --> 17:54.133 starting to see now too is . We're 17:54.133 --> 17:56.078 getting away from that pace plan , 17:56.078 --> 17:58.189 right ? We used to always have a pace 17:58.189 --> 18:00.245 for every single type of comms , but 18:00.245 --> 18:02.356 now what we're really starting to see 18:02.356 --> 18:04.522 is everything is going to that peak is 18:04.522 --> 18:06.745 now a chat-based thing and we're losing 18:06.745 --> 18:06.660 a lot of that commander commander 18:06.660 --> 18:08.604 dialogue that actually drives that 18:08.604 --> 18:10.493 decision and that action . Yeah , 18:10.493 --> 18:12.604 absolutely . You know , when you talk 18:12.604 --> 18:14.771 about um pace plans , you get right to 18:14.771 --> 18:16.549 our fifth topic which is really 18:16.549 --> 18:18.771 brigades figuring out how to discipline 18:18.771 --> 18:20.882 have a discipline structure to manage 18:20.882 --> 18:23.216 what we call here a 4 channel pace , um , 18:23.216 --> 18:22.510 which , you know , so regardless of 18:22.510 --> 18:24.399 what kind of media we're using to 18:24.399 --> 18:26.454 communicate , we could be on JBCP we 18:26.454 --> 18:28.810 could be on WinTech Tack , Wicker , MOS , 18:29.270 --> 18:31.430 uh , using our TSM systems , whatever 18:31.430 --> 18:33.541 it is , however we're communicating , 18:33.541 --> 18:35.652 we have to coordinate units , we have 18:35.652 --> 18:37.708 to coordinate . The fight we have to 18:37.708 --> 18:39.930 coordinate resources to apply action so 18:39.930 --> 18:42.097 that we can win and we have to be able 18:42.097 --> 18:41.556 to do that along those three time 18:41.556 --> 18:43.834 horizons . Um , so if you could , what , 18:43.834 --> 18:45.945 why don't you tell me , why don't you 18:45.945 --> 18:48.000 tell us what a 4 channel pace is and 18:48.000 --> 18:47.995 why that's a good way to think about it ? 18:48.076 --> 18:50.187 Yes sir , absolutely . So I , I think 18:50.187 --> 18:52.298 our , our 4 biggest ones that we have 18:52.298 --> 18:54.298 to make sure we always have is that 18:54.298 --> 18:54.235 command channel , right , for that 18:54.235 --> 18:56.457 commander to commander dialogue where I 18:56.457 --> 18:58.568 can go direct with the , the boss and 18:58.568 --> 19:00.791 be like , sir , this is what's going on 19:00.791 --> 19:03.013 and just have that open dialogue . Uh , 19:03.013 --> 19:04.957 the second one is our ONI , so our 19:04.957 --> 19:07.068 operations and intelligence , so that 19:07.068 --> 19:09.179 we can start taking some of that data 19:09.179 --> 19:09.082 that is going through all those chests 19:09.082 --> 19:11.421 and actually process it so that can 19:11.421 --> 19:13.365 drive that that operation in those 19:13.365 --> 19:15.254 decisions . Um , the third one is 19:15.254 --> 19:17.477 always our fires . You can't , can't do 19:17.477 --> 19:19.643 anything without the fires , and if we 19:19.643 --> 19:21.754 don't have that dedicated net just to 19:21.754 --> 19:21.621 talk fires , then , then we're really 19:21.621 --> 19:23.677 gonna start missing that piece . And 19:23.677 --> 19:26.041 then the fourth one is the AI or ANL , 19:26.082 --> 19:28.239 excuse me . Um , so our four channels 19:28.239 --> 19:30.410 are , are ANL so we can talk our IMN 19:30.410 --> 19:32.410 logistics and anything else that we 19:32.410 --> 19:34.632 need to as far as medical Kazac and all 19:34.632 --> 19:36.743 that is our , our 4 big channels that 19:36.743 --> 19:38.743 we need to make sure that we always 19:38.743 --> 19:40.910 have . No , absolutely , and I think , 19:40.910 --> 19:42.966 um , so for each of those 4 channels 19:42.966 --> 19:44.966 then we got , we wanna see units be 19:44.966 --> 19:44.439 able to have a primary alternate 19:44.439 --> 19:46.606 contingency and emergency for each one 19:46.606 --> 19:48.550 of them . Uh , media and method of 19:48.550 --> 19:50.550 transport is , is immaterial , uh , 19:50.550 --> 19:52.640 generally speaking . Um , commanders 19:52.640 --> 19:54.807 are gonna want to talk over voice , so 19:54.807 --> 19:57.029 we got to figure out a way to establish 19:57.029 --> 19:58.973 a voice command , uh , net for our 19:58.973 --> 20:00.918 commanders to have dialogue . Uh , 20:00.918 --> 20:00.869 generally speaking , oh and I could be , 20:01.079 --> 20:03.246 it could be digital , uh , it could be 20:03.246 --> 20:05.412 in a chat room , uh , could be voice . 20:05.412 --> 20:07.523 There's lots of ways to do it . Fires 20:07.523 --> 20:09.746 generally tend to be . Digital , uh , I 20:09.746 --> 20:11.690 would argue that A&L also probably 20:11.690 --> 20:13.801 needs to be voiced , but again , data 20:13.801 --> 20:15.968 agnostic and media agnostic , but it's 20:15.968 --> 20:18.079 really the discipline of having those 20:18.079 --> 20:20.301 four channels , so commanders , fires , 20:20.301 --> 20:22.412 personnel , operations , people , and 20:22.412 --> 20:24.579 sustainers can do what they need to do 20:24.579 --> 20:26.801 and have 4 ways that they could do it , 20:26.801 --> 20:26.564 and you got absolutely in terms of 20:26.564 --> 20:29.114 establishing that pace plan , uh it is 20:29.114 --> 20:31.281 bottom talks to hire so we've got to , 20:31.281 --> 20:33.614 we want to see discipline in the system . 20:33.614 --> 20:35.781 Uh , where battalions or companies are 20:35.781 --> 20:37.781 positioned themselves to be able to 20:37.781 --> 20:39.892 talk higher how whatever talk means , 20:39.892 --> 20:42.058 um , and to do that , uh , really what 20:42.058 --> 20:44.392 we've got to get away from is , is , uh , 20:44.392 --> 20:46.336 allowing units to , to just choose 20:46.336 --> 20:48.170 their own adventure , choose how 20:48.170 --> 20:50.336 they're gonna talk , uh , we often see 20:50.336 --> 20:52.392 units here . So Major , I know you , 20:52.392 --> 20:51.890 you get frustrated sometimes when we 20:51.890 --> 20:54.170 see 27 or 30 chat rooms , uh , where 20:54.170 --> 20:56.281 we've got too much data and go in too 20:56.281 --> 20:58.400 many places or I would argue worse . 20:58.670 --> 21:00.392 When we have one chat room and 21:00.392 --> 21:02.559 everything's happening in there , uh , 21:02.559 --> 21:04.726 both those answers probably aren't the 21:04.726 --> 21:04.369 right answer . We've got to discipline 21:04.369 --> 21:06.536 our processes . Absolutely agree , and 21:06.536 --> 21:08.758 I , I know that we'll talk a little bit 21:08.758 --> 21:10.813 about this later , but when we start 21:10.813 --> 21:13.036 talking all all this pace and all these 21:13.036 --> 21:15.258 systems where we've got to really start 21:15.258 --> 21:17.147 paying attention to now is our EW 21:17.147 --> 21:19.258 situation , and I know that's a later 21:19.258 --> 21:21.091 topic in conversation , but it's 21:21.091 --> 21:23.147 something to really think about when 21:23.147 --> 21:22.930 talking about your pace plan and what 21:22.930 --> 21:24.979 type of systems you're using . All 21:24.979 --> 21:27.090 right . So our major , you take us to 21:27.090 --> 21:28.979 number 6 signature management and 21:28.979 --> 21:31.180 emissions control , uh , as the army 21:31.180 --> 21:33.069 moves in a certain direction with 21:33.069 --> 21:34.791 Mission command systems , uh , 21:34.791 --> 21:37.013 currently , um , looking at I-2N , uh , 21:37.013 --> 21:39.124 and Federated Mission Command Systems 21:39.124 --> 21:41.420 looking to the future for C2 fix , uh , 21:41.459 --> 21:43.403 and incorporating some , some data 21:43.403 --> 21:45.626 management tools . You also see a drive 21:45.626 --> 21:47.848 to much smaller command posts , right ? 21:47.848 --> 21:50.015 So , so , uh , what our senior leaders 21:50.015 --> 21:52.126 are telling us is smaller is better . 21:52.126 --> 21:54.070 Um , as a counterpoint to that , I 21:54.070 --> 21:56.237 think what I'd offer is , um , we also 21:56.237 --> 21:58.292 got to focus on not just smaller CPs 21:58.292 --> 22:00.292 but better understand how those CPs 22:00.292 --> 22:02.515 emit and understand how to maintain the 22:02.515 --> 22:04.681 same functions while acknowledging the 22:04.681 --> 22:06.903 emissions we have in multiple domains . 22:06.903 --> 22:09.015 So you know , physically we've got an 22:09.015 --> 22:11.126 emission by the way we look , um , by 22:11.126 --> 22:10.589 the sounds we make , by the light we 22:10.589 --> 22:12.560 emit . Um , spectrum wise we have 22:12.560 --> 22:14.338 emissions every time we we turn 22:14.338 --> 22:16.393 something on or it , it emits , uh , 22:16.393 --> 22:18.616 and then cyber , uh , obviously we have 22:18.616 --> 22:20.949 emissions and we're in that domain , uh , 22:20.949 --> 22:23.171 based on how we occupy the space , uh , 22:23.171 --> 22:22.640 but what are your thoughts on how we 22:22.640 --> 22:24.807 can get smaller and what that means to 22:24.807 --> 22:26.973 the army ? Yes sir , so I , I think we 22:26.973 --> 22:29.196 really start talking about that smaller 22:29.196 --> 22:31.418 command posts are more survivable , but 22:31.418 --> 22:33.640 they may not always be better , right ? 22:33.640 --> 22:35.751 And what you really gotta take a look 22:35.751 --> 22:37.807 at and it comes back to that risk is 22:37.807 --> 22:39.862 what risk is a commander assuming by 22:39.862 --> 22:41.807 making it smaller . Do we have the 22:41.807 --> 22:41.589 right people at every one of these 22:41.589 --> 22:43.811 locations , whether it's getting rid of 22:43.811 --> 22:46.349 an A lock , um , and kind of setting up 22:46.349 --> 22:48.460 the , the new concept we're trying to 22:48.460 --> 22:50.738 talk about with the rear command posts , 22:50.738 --> 22:52.793 do we have the right people at those 22:52.793 --> 22:54.849 right locations ? Um , and then just 22:54.849 --> 22:56.849 when you start looking at the , the 22:56.849 --> 22:59.071 command post , how well are we actually 22:59.071 --> 22:59.030 getting back in and kind of blending in 22:59.030 --> 23:01.197 with our natural environment , whether 23:01.197 --> 23:03.141 it's in an urban area that kind of 23:03.141 --> 23:05.363 helps out with that EW submission or we 23:05.363 --> 23:07.308 still in the wood line where we're 23:07.308 --> 23:09.474 actually camouflaging . I think one of 23:09.474 --> 23:11.419 the biggest ETPs that we're seeing 23:11.419 --> 23:13.641 that's actually being really successful 23:13.641 --> 23:12.489 is as soon as they're getting 23:12.489 --> 23:14.656 established , they're throwing off one 23:14.656 --> 23:16.489 of their drones and looking from 23:16.489 --> 23:18.600 overhead instead of just , you know , 23:18.600 --> 23:20.656 horizontally , I think is one of the 23:20.656 --> 23:23.050 best ETPs we're seeing and it's 23:23.050 --> 23:25.106 extremely effective when it comes to 23:25.106 --> 23:27.217 the enemy trying to target them . You 23:27.217 --> 23:29.217 can't really find them . And so the 23:29.217 --> 23:31.750 smaller you are and . Create that 23:31.750 --> 23:33.972 camouflage is one of the more effective 23:33.972 --> 23:36.194 tools we're seeing when it comes to the 23:36.194 --> 23:38.306 smaller command posts . Yeah , so you 23:38.306 --> 23:37.939 talked about hiding in plain sight , 23:37.949 --> 23:40.060 right , so we can establish ourselves 23:40.060 --> 23:42.282 in an urban center and acknowledge that 23:42.282 --> 23:44.338 our emissions will match , kind of , 23:44.338 --> 23:46.560 you know , as long as we're careful and 23:46.560 --> 23:45.810 not providing unique military 23:45.810 --> 23:47.866 signatures we can hide hide in plain 23:47.866 --> 23:49.977 sight , uh , force protection looking 23:49.977 --> 23:52.143 back at ourselves , kind of evaluating 23:52.143 --> 23:54.199 our battle position , evaluating our 23:54.199 --> 23:56.310 fighting position . I think those are 23:56.310 --> 23:58.477 great TP TTPs , um , you know , but as 23:58.477 --> 24:00.421 we pursue smaller , uh , which and 24:00.421 --> 24:02.532 smaller I think can be better there I 24:02.532 --> 24:04.643 think there is a point of diminishing 24:04.643 --> 24:04.579 returns , uh , and you gotta consider 24:04.579 --> 24:06.699 both form and function , um , because 24:06.699 --> 24:08.921 you can't perform the 66 functions of a 24:08.921 --> 24:11.143 command post , which are , you know , 1 24:11.143 --> 24:12.866 receive information , uh , 2 , 24:13.260 --> 24:15.149 distribute that information , 3 , 24:15.149 --> 24:17.349 analyze that information . Uh , 4 , 24:17.520 --> 24:19.576 submit , uh , recommendations to the 24:19.576 --> 24:22.760 commander . Uh , number 5 , leverage uh 24:22.760 --> 24:25.093 integrate resources , and then number 6 , 24:25.093 --> 24:27.260 synchronize those resources to achieve 24:27.260 --> 24:29.427 an end state . If you can't do those 6 24:29.427 --> 24:31.427 things , then you're not a talk and 24:31.427 --> 24:33.538 you're not a command post . So as you 24:33.538 --> 24:33.000 talked about , we gotta have the right 24:33.000 --> 24:35.111 people , uh , we gotta have the right 24:35.111 --> 24:37.333 function . Uh , if , uh , if we don't , 24:37.333 --> 24:39.389 if we aren't able to achieve those 6 24:39.389 --> 24:41.444 functions as a command post , then , 24:41.444 --> 24:41.319 then I'm not sure we're a command post . 24:41.420 --> 24:43.476 So while smaller is better , um , we 24:43.476 --> 24:45.642 got to keep in mind that command posts 24:45.642 --> 24:47.753 have to do those 6 things to make a , 24:47.753 --> 24:50.031 make a brigade or really any formation , 24:50.031 --> 24:52.031 uh , capable , um , so you know , I 24:52.031 --> 24:54.198 don't know , you know , I don't know . 24:54.198 --> 24:56.309 If there's a way or if you've got any 24:56.309 --> 24:58.476 thoughts about as we get smaller , are 24:58.476 --> 24:58.334 there ways to deceive the enemy that 24:58.334 --> 25:00.278 allow us to maintain that form and 25:00.278 --> 25:02.223 function , uh , but also give that 25:02.223 --> 25:04.445 enemy a false look so yeah , so I think 25:04.445 --> 25:06.445 one of the things we're starting to 25:06.445 --> 25:08.556 really see is our decoys . What do we 25:08.556 --> 25:10.501 put out there to try and throw our 25:10.501 --> 25:12.612 enemy off , you know , whether it's . 25:12.612 --> 25:14.556 You know , a raspberry pi , put an 25:14.556 --> 25:16.667 antenna farm out there with something 25:16.667 --> 25:18.890 going towards it and having someone key 25:18.890 --> 25:18.660 it every now and then to just put that 25:18.660 --> 25:20.882 signature off or really draw in on it , 25:20.939 --> 25:23.050 or , you know , we're starting to see 25:23.050 --> 25:25.260 the howitzer decoys . It , it's 25:25.260 --> 25:27.316 anything that can just throw off and 25:27.316 --> 25:29.538 deceive our enemy when it comes to that 25:29.538 --> 25:31.593 kind of thing . And then just always 25:31.593 --> 25:33.816 remember and , and this is a big lesson 25:33.816 --> 25:35.982 learned coming out of Ukraine is every 25:35.982 --> 25:37.927 time that ham mic is being keyed . 25:37.927 --> 25:40.149 We're now picking up on , on that where 25:40.149 --> 25:42.371 they're at . So , you know , going back 25:42.371 --> 25:44.316 to you , this is me over , click , 25:44.316 --> 25:46.427 click , click constantly doing that . 25:46.427 --> 25:46.300 Now they're automatically locked and 25:46.300 --> 25:48.356 fixed onto us . So really as soon as 25:48.356 --> 25:50.522 you're keying that , get down to , you 25:50.522 --> 25:52.689 know , the bluff up front , hey , this 25:52.689 --> 25:54.800 is what we need to do and get off the 25:54.800 --> 25:56.967 radio as soon as possible . Yeah , you 25:56.967 --> 25:56.619 know , I think we both got told this we 25:56.619 --> 25:58.675 were younger , right ? Be brief , be 25:58.675 --> 26:00.730 brilliant , be gone . Uh , more true 26:00.730 --> 26:02.730 today than it ever has been , and I 26:02.730 --> 26:04.619 think the army still has a lot of 26:04.619 --> 26:04.609 learning , uh , to do in this regard . 26:04.979 --> 26:06.979 Um , step one is to get smaller . I 26:06.979 --> 26:08.646 think step two is to get more 26:08.646 --> 26:10.812 sophisticated in how we use decoys and 26:10.812 --> 26:12.868 deception , uh , to , to deceive the 26:12.868 --> 26:15.140 enemy and find ways to , to , uh , put 26:15.140 --> 26:16.859 him in a position of relative 26:16.859 --> 26:18.859 disadvantage , um , and also still 26:18.859 --> 26:21.081 retain that form and function so we can 26:21.081 --> 26:23.192 still fight . So I , I think going on 26:23.192 --> 26:25.415 to our , our next topic , sir , we kind 26:25.415 --> 26:27.470 of talked UAS a little bit earlier , 26:27.470 --> 26:29.637 but what are you really seeing when it 26:29.637 --> 26:31.692 comes to the airspace management now 26:31.692 --> 26:31.160 that we're starting to get this many 26:31.160 --> 26:33.560 drones in the fight ? Oh yeah , so I , 26:33.800 --> 26:36.133 I think this is uh a problem , you know , 26:36.133 --> 26:38.244 the , the army has got to continue to 26:38.244 --> 26:40.356 talk about , but particularly here at 26:40.356 --> 26:42.522 JMRC and , and I bet at all the CTCs , 26:42.522 --> 26:44.578 um , with the proliferation of UAS , 26:44.578 --> 26:46.744 just the old ways of managing airspace 26:46.744 --> 26:48.967 where you'd establish a discrete . uh , 26:48.967 --> 26:51.078 which is a three dimensional piece of 26:51.078 --> 26:53.022 airspace that goes up to a certain 26:53.022 --> 26:55.189 altitude to allow a raven , a shadow , 26:55.189 --> 26:57.356 or really anything to operate in , and 26:57.356 --> 26:59.522 you put those all over the battlefield 26:59.522 --> 27:01.744 to discreetly manage , you know , 345 , 27:01.744 --> 27:03.967 maybe even 10 systems , um , those days 27:03.967 --> 27:06.078 are gone . Uh , we just had a brigade 27:06.078 --> 27:08.189 come through here with over 200 UAS , 27:08.449 --> 27:11.380 uh , fully anticipate by 2026 we'll see 27:11.380 --> 27:13.890 every brigade coming through JMRC . Um , 27:13.900 --> 27:16.359 with hundreds of UAS , um , so really 27:16.359 --> 27:18.581 what it boils down to is how , how with 27:18.581 --> 27:20.303 the proliferation of all these 27:20.303 --> 27:22.526 platforms , most of them unmanned , but 27:22.526 --> 27:22.520 you also want to bring in your manned 27:22.520 --> 27:24.464 aircraft , but it's still a lot of 27:24.464 --> 27:26.576 punch , a lot of power packed with an 27:26.576 --> 27:28.742 Apache , uh , also may need to conduct 27:28.742 --> 27:30.964 an air assault , may wanna move Class 9 27:30.964 --> 27:33.187 with rotary wings , a lot of reasons to 27:33.187 --> 27:35.187 bring manned platforms in with this 27:35.187 --> 27:35.160 proliferation , all these things in the 27:35.160 --> 27:37.327 air , operating in all this space from 27:37.327 --> 27:39.549 ground level all the way up to 3000 and 27:39.549 --> 27:41.549 above feet . Uh , how do you manage 27:41.549 --> 27:43.604 that airspace ? Um , and I think the 27:43.604 --> 27:45.771 dialogue we gotta continue to have and 27:45.771 --> 27:47.993 what we wanna see brigades have here at 27:47.993 --> 27:50.216 JMRC is the difference between airspace 27:50.216 --> 27:52.271 management and airspace control . So 27:52.271 --> 27:54.438 airspace management is really just the 27:54.438 --> 27:53.829 process of planning , coordinating , 27:54.010 --> 27:56.121 integrating , and synchronizing . How 27:56.121 --> 27:58.619 you're gonna manage airspace to uh uh 27:58.619 --> 28:00.675 to , to max maximize opportunity and 28:00.675 --> 28:02.897 advantage for the brigade . It's really 28:02.897 --> 28:05.063 the plans . Airspace management is the 28:05.063 --> 28:07.175 plans of airspace . Um , generally we 28:07.175 --> 28:09.230 use our , our , our , uh , 14 series 28:09.230 --> 28:11.286 personnel in our talk often have the 28:11.286 --> 28:13.230 lead , uh , in terms of planning , 28:13.230 --> 28:15.341 planning airspace between both our 15 28:15.341 --> 28:17.119 series aviators , 14 series ADA 28:17.119 --> 28:19.286 personnel . They tend to plan airspace 28:19.286 --> 28:21.508 management , um . Airspace management's 28:21.508 --> 28:23.730 only the plan , right ? And once , once 28:23.730 --> 28:25.619 we start operating , that plan is 28:25.619 --> 28:27.675 usually not very good . So you got a 28:27.675 --> 28:29.786 translation to transition to airspace 28:29.786 --> 28:31.452 control . Airspace control is 28:31.452 --> 28:33.675 everybody's problem , right ? It's just 28:33.675 --> 28:32.775 like , it's just like being , it's , 28:32.785 --> 28:35.474 it's the co ops of airspace , um , so 28:35.474 --> 28:38.015 to exercise control is to exercise 28:38.015 --> 28:40.182 designated authority over airspace and 28:40.182 --> 28:42.895 deconflict , um , at altitude and , and , 28:42.935 --> 28:45.213 uh , either procedurally or positively . 28:45.270 --> 28:47.489 How airspace is gonna be used by the 28:47.489 --> 28:49.711 platforms that are in it , right ? So I 28:49.711 --> 28:51.933 think that's the hardest transition the 28:51.933 --> 28:51.750 army's got to have because you can't 28:51.750 --> 28:54.069 just say , hey , ADA guy , I'm gonna 28:54.069 --> 28:56.300 have you do that , or hey , aviator , 28:56.390 --> 28:58.668 uh , I want you to manage the airspace . 28:58.668 --> 29:00.334 That is a brigade commander's 29:00.334 --> 29:02.446 responsibility . That is as 3 as XO , 29:02.446 --> 29:04.612 uh , his chief of operations , that is 29:04.612 --> 29:06.834 every battalion commander , every every 29:06.834 --> 29:08.946 CSM and every echelon . We've all got 29:08.946 --> 29:11.112 to figure out how to exercise airspace 29:11.112 --> 29:13.279 control , uh , after it's been planned 29:13.279 --> 29:15.446 and managed . Yeah , so I , I know one 29:15.446 --> 29:14.930 thing we've been trying to do the last 29:14.930 --> 29:17.263 couple of rotations is , you know , how , 29:17.263 --> 29:19.097 how do we make the airspace more 29:19.097 --> 29:21.041 permissive where we can just start 29:21.041 --> 29:23.263 flying because that's what we gotta get 29:23.263 --> 29:22.959 to and you were kind of talking about 29:22.959 --> 29:25.449 that is it , you can't really control 29:25.449 --> 29:27.560 this anymore when there's hundreds of 29:27.560 --> 29:29.727 UAS flying . How do you control this ? 29:29.880 --> 29:32.010 So as you know , a former brigade 29:32.010 --> 29:34.010 commander now is a cog , how do you 29:34.010 --> 29:36.121 assume that risk and like what , what 29:36.121 --> 29:38.232 would be how you would really go into 29:38.232 --> 29:40.288 this type of battle that a lot of us 29:40.288 --> 29:42.399 really haven't seen and really had to 29:42.399 --> 29:44.621 do . Yeah , no , I think , um , some of 29:44.621 --> 29:46.677 it we just got to get comfortable in 29:46.677 --> 29:48.788 the third dimension . Uh , we've been 29:48.788 --> 29:50.954 spent years , I think , spoiled , uh , 29:50.954 --> 29:53.232 believing that we can have PLI , right ? 29:53.232 --> 29:52.719 You can always know where your aircraft 29:52.719 --> 29:54.719 are , um , because if it's a rotary 29:54.719 --> 29:56.775 wing , they're reporting their PLI , 29:56.775 --> 29:58.663 and I can see them in my system , 29:58.663 --> 30:00.886 Mission command system , and I can tell 30:00.886 --> 30:03.052 where they're at . And if it's a UAS , 30:03.052 --> 30:02.609 there's only 5 or 6 of them , so I 30:02.609 --> 30:04.942 always kind of know where they are , um , 30:04.942 --> 30:07.165 and that's what we got we call positive 30:07.165 --> 30:09.276 control . Well , that , that's over . 30:09.276 --> 30:11.498 There's no more positive control , uh , 30:11.498 --> 30:11.165 except . I think you only implement 30:11.165 --> 30:13.276 that when you got when you got manned 30:13.276 --> 30:15.443 aircraft in the air , um , so we gotta 30:15.443 --> 30:17.609 get back to , uh , procedural controls 30:17.609 --> 30:19.887 and be comfortable being uncomfortable , 30:19.887 --> 30:21.776 um , the same phase lines graphic 30:21.776 --> 30:23.943 control measures that we use to manage 30:23.943 --> 30:26.221 maneuver , the same ones that we trust , 30:26.221 --> 30:26.204 the boundaries that we trust that will 30:26.204 --> 30:28.371 prevent Alpha Company from from firing 30:28.371 --> 30:30.315 into Bravo Company's flank as they 30:30.315 --> 30:32.426 maneuver , right ? We , we use that , 30:32.426 --> 30:34.426 that , uh , uh , unit boundary as a 30:34.426 --> 30:36.482 barrier , and we trust it on the map 30:36.482 --> 30:38.482 and we trust we rehearse it that it 30:38.482 --> 30:40.593 won't be violated . Uh , we've got to 30:40.593 --> 30:40.349 gain that trust in the third dimension . 30:40.689 --> 30:42.745 Uh , and you really got to flip it , 30:42.745 --> 30:44.745 flip the script , whereas before we 30:44.745 --> 30:46.967 tried to establish the most , um , Uh , 30:47.630 --> 30:49.852 we tried to establish airspace that was 30:49.852 --> 30:51.797 restrictive enough to optimize the 30:51.797 --> 30:53.852 effects we're trying to achieve . We 30:53.852 --> 30:56.019 gotta go the other direction and , and 30:56.019 --> 30:58.186 generally consider the air , uh , free 30:58.186 --> 31:00.074 for US employment and really only 31:00.074 --> 31:01.908 establish restrictive procedural 31:01.908 --> 31:04.130 control when we want to bring in rotary 31:04.130 --> 31:04.069 wing or some other form of manned 31:04.069 --> 31:06.089 aircraft , um , so it's , it's all 31:06.089 --> 31:08.145 about just getting comfortable being 31:08.145 --> 31:10.256 uncomfortable and trusting that those 31:10.256 --> 31:11.978 same lines we trust in the two 31:11.978 --> 31:14.200 dimensional . On the ground and working 31:14.200 --> 31:16.367 in the 3rd dimension in the air , um , 31:16.367 --> 31:15.880 and you know , and I think you know the , 31:15.959 --> 31:18.126 the thing that we owe at JMRC probably 31:18.126 --> 31:20.181 to our audiences we need to bring in 31:20.181 --> 31:22.348 our Falcon team and some other experts 31:22.348 --> 31:24.403 who can probably describe this stuff 31:24.403 --> 31:23.680 really well , and I think we need to do 31:23.680 --> 31:26.209 a whole episode on airspace management 31:26.209 --> 31:28.153 because , uh , the doctrine is not 31:28.153 --> 31:30.320 there . Uh , we are absolutely out out 31:30.320 --> 31:32.431 past the movies , uh , experiment and 31:32.431 --> 31:34.542 getting some good results , but we've 31:34.542 --> 31:36.876 got to keep trying . I completely agree . 31:36.876 --> 31:39.098 I think this is an . A new norm that we 31:39.098 --> 31:38.709 just don't know yet and , and there's 31:38.709 --> 31:40.709 so much more that's going into this 31:40.709 --> 31:42.820 that we have to learn and continue to 31:42.820 --> 31:44.876 get better and write that doctrine , 31:44.876 --> 31:47.098 you know , how , how do we actually get 31:47.098 --> 31:49.265 after this and I completely agree that 31:49.265 --> 31:51.320 Is probably an entire episode really 31:51.320 --> 31:53.431 talking about this to really get down 31:53.431 --> 31:55.709 to the details of it . No , absolutely . 31:55.709 --> 31:57.987 I , I know lean off of that last topic , 31:57.987 --> 32:00.209 you know , talking about the airspace , 32:00.209 --> 32:00.140 I think really what we need to look at 32:00.140 --> 32:02.307 and kind of talk about now is a little 32:02.307 --> 32:04.329 bit of the employment of SUS in a 32:04.329 --> 32:06.551 degraded . Environment and kind of what 32:06.551 --> 32:08.496 your thoughts are on that and what 32:08.496 --> 32:10.607 we're really seeing , uh , you know , 32:10.607 --> 32:12.718 struggle with when it comes to that . 32:12.718 --> 32:14.607 Yeah , so as the army , I mean we 32:14.607 --> 32:14.520 continue to , you know , experiment 32:14.520 --> 32:16.760 with SUAS and UAS and all sorts of 32:16.760 --> 32:18.816 other , uh , capabilities to enhance 32:18.816 --> 32:20.982 our observation and other things we do 32:20.982 --> 32:23.204 as an army , um , but you know with the 32:23.204 --> 32:25.316 rewrite of FM3O and the understanding 32:25.316 --> 32:27.538 of what multi-domain operations means , 32:27.538 --> 32:29.593 uh , where one of the imperatives is 32:29.593 --> 32:31.482 that units are always in constant 32:31.482 --> 32:33.593 contact and under observation all the 32:33.593 --> 32:35.482 time . Uh , how do we , how do we 32:35.482 --> 32:37.704 employ UAS , um , uh , uh , against our 32:37.704 --> 32:39.704 adversaries in that environment and 32:39.704 --> 32:41.816 then how is our , how our adversaries 32:41.816 --> 32:43.816 also gonna try , uh , to impede our 32:43.816 --> 32:46.038 ability to do that as well , um , and I 32:46.038 --> 32:45.969 know , you know , it's our time here at 32:45.969 --> 32:48.400 JMRC , we spent a lot of time , um , 32:48.410 --> 32:50.632 with Special Assistance Group Ukraine , 32:50.632 --> 32:52.799 uh , talking about what's happening in 32:52.799 --> 32:54.799 Ukraine . Um , and really the , you 32:54.799 --> 32:57.199 know , the thing that we , uh , we want 32:57.199 --> 32:59.310 brigades to struggle with here and we 32:59.310 --> 33:01.532 hope to make them struggle more because 33:01.532 --> 33:03.699 we're gonna start thinking this way is 33:03.699 --> 33:05.477 how do you employ your UAS in a 33:05.477 --> 33:07.810 contested electromagnetic spectrum . Um , 33:07.810 --> 33:09.921 how do you think in four dimensions , 33:09.921 --> 33:12.143 right ? So the 4th dimension being that 33:12.143 --> 33:14.366 EMS , uh , if , if we got an op 4 who's 33:14.366 --> 33:16.588 smart and clever like Warrior Battalion 33:16.588 --> 33:18.699 is , and they're gonna get better and 33:18.699 --> 33:18.630 they keep working on it . Uh , what if 33:18.630 --> 33:20.790 they put all their UAS on 2 or 3 33:20.790 --> 33:23.012 different spectrum bands right in front 33:23.012 --> 33:25.068 of you and block everything that you 33:25.068 --> 33:26.901 could do , uh , as , as a , as a 33:26.901 --> 33:29.179 training unit , as a , as a blue force , 33:29.179 --> 33:31.234 um , what are you gonna do ? How are 33:31.234 --> 33:30.630 you gonna know that ? How are you gonna 33:30.630 --> 33:32.741 see that block in the , in the fourth 33:32.741 --> 33:34.852 dimension of , of EMS and then figure 33:34.852 --> 33:36.741 out how to either penetrate it or 33:36.741 --> 33:38.949 bypass it or do something else , um . 33:39.260 --> 33:41.538 So that's , that's something our major . 33:41.538 --> 33:43.760 I mean , it just is , you know , beyond 33:43.760 --> 33:45.982 just the mechanics of managing airspace 33:45.982 --> 33:48.093 and creating room in the air for this 33:48.093 --> 33:50.316 stuff , uh , how we're gonna see , um , 33:50.316 --> 33:52.593 an EMS to even fight with these things ? 33:52.593 --> 33:54.704 Yeah , I , I think , you know , a lot 33:54.704 --> 33:54.420 of it is , do we really understand this , 33:54.780 --> 33:57.002 the spectrum and how we're operating it 33:57.002 --> 33:59.459 and it's something relatively new that 33:59.459 --> 34:01.681 a lot of people don't really understand 34:01.681 --> 34:03.792 and . You know , we're , we're seeing 34:03.792 --> 34:03.270 and we're struggling with it and 34:03.270 --> 34:05.159 obviously with a 3 dash show just 34:05.229 --> 34:07.340 coming out with a lot of new things . 34:07.340 --> 34:09.396 That's where we really start need to 34:09.396 --> 34:11.507 start looking at some of these things 34:11.507 --> 34:13.618 to really understand that domain that 34:13.618 --> 34:15.785 we haven't been operating in for , you 34:15.785 --> 34:17.951 know , the last 20 years really , um , 34:17.951 --> 34:17.909 when it comes down to a lot of those 34:17.909 --> 34:20.020 things . Yeah , and I mean what we're 34:20.020 --> 34:22.076 seeing , uh , I think what we see in 34:22.076 --> 34:24.187 the modern battlefield is down to the 34:24.187 --> 34:23.780 lowest level , you know , no matter 34:23.780 --> 34:26.899 who's operating that UAS 11 bravo , uh , 34:26.909 --> 34:29.139 artillery men . Uh , cavalry scout , 34:29.179 --> 34:31.401 whoever it is , uh , what we see on the 34:31.401 --> 34:33.457 battlefield today is that individual 34:33.457 --> 34:35.790 soldiers actually having to take a , uh , 34:35.790 --> 34:37.846 individual spectrometer and find the 34:37.846 --> 34:40.068 least spectrum where they can operate , 34:40.068 --> 34:42.290 uh , to launch multiple UAS and see how 34:42.290 --> 34:44.623 many they can actually get through , um , 34:44.623 --> 34:46.790 you know , are we as brigades ready to 34:46.790 --> 34:49.012 do that as CTCs , uh , you know , and , 34:49.012 --> 34:50.901 and we here at JMRC are certainly 34:50.901 --> 34:52.790 committed to creating . Um , that 34:52.790 --> 34:54.846 contested EMS space , but that's the 34:54.846 --> 34:54.408 kind of training we look forward to 34:54.408 --> 34:56.519 seeing from brigades before they come 34:56.519 --> 34:58.575 here and have those battle drills of 34:58.575 --> 35:00.630 how to react , uh , to EMS that just 35:00.630 --> 35:02.797 won't let you operate the way you want 35:02.797 --> 35:04.575 to , uh , understanding of what 35:04.575 --> 35:06.797 resources you have at the brigade and , 35:06.797 --> 35:09.075 and lower echelons to combat that . Uh , 35:09.075 --> 35:11.186 and then continue to how do you fight 35:11.186 --> 35:13.241 through that fourth dimension of EMS 35:13.241 --> 35:15.575 and do what you need to do as a brigade , 35:15.575 --> 35:17.630 um , huge challenge , yeah , it , it 35:17.630 --> 35:17.229 absolutely is . I think , you know , we 35:17.229 --> 35:19.396 kind of talked a little bit about it , 35:19.396 --> 35:21.562 you know , incorporating UAS is a huge 35:21.562 --> 35:23.785 challenge that a lot of brigades really 35:23.785 --> 35:26.007 haven't done going into CTCs , and then 35:26.007 --> 35:28.285 you start throwing in . You know , all , 35:28.285 --> 35:30.340 all this in the degraded , like it's 35:30.340 --> 35:29.889 gonna make it even worse like again 35:29.889 --> 35:32.209 after that that contested and degraded 35:32.209 --> 35:34.129 environment is a whole different 35:34.129 --> 35:36.129 challenge that , uh , I don't think 35:36.129 --> 35:38.351 we're ready for yet . No , absolutely , 35:38.351 --> 35:40.351 and it's , you know , just like any 35:40.351 --> 35:42.296 other military skill starts at the 35:42.296 --> 35:44.462 lowest level with an individual skills 35:44.462 --> 35:46.518 we gotta continue to work on all the 35:46.518 --> 35:45.850 way up through collective at the 35:45.850 --> 35:47.794 brigade level , uh , it's a lot of 35:47.794 --> 35:50.128 stuff we gotta work through . All right , 35:50.128 --> 35:52.294 so Major , we just spent a lot of time 35:52.294 --> 35:51.969 talking about new things , new 35:51.969 --> 35:54.191 characters of warfare that we're seeing 35:54.191 --> 35:56.413 coming out of Ukraine . Um , that we're 35:56.413 --> 35:58.525 seeing replicated in CTCs and here at 35:58.525 --> 36:00.747 JMRC , um , but I think we need to talk 36:00.747 --> 36:03.080 about our 9th , uh , uh , our 9th topic , 36:03.080 --> 36:05.302 which is an old thing , um , you know , 36:05.302 --> 36:07.413 one thing we continue to see brigades 36:07.413 --> 36:09.580 challenged with , uh , challenged with 36:09.580 --> 36:11.525 when they come here to the JMRC is 36:11.525 --> 36:13.302 conducting a defense in depth . 36:13.302 --> 36:15.525 Defending is just absolutely one of the 36:15.525 --> 36:17.691 hardest mets , um , that every brigade 36:17.691 --> 36:19.580 combat team has , uh , you know , 36:19.580 --> 36:21.413 requires an incredible amount of 36:21.413 --> 36:23.580 science and . Confinement , um , to do 36:23.580 --> 36:25.747 all sorts of things from building your 36:25.747 --> 36:25.245 obstacles to build your engagement 36:25.245 --> 36:27.412 areas , uh , to establish the security 36:27.412 --> 36:29.412 zone , uh , we continue to see just 36:29.412 --> 36:31.467 brigades have challenges with this . 36:31.467 --> 36:33.578 What do you , what's your reflections 36:33.578 --> 36:33.135 on why , why we're still struggling 36:33.135 --> 36:35.191 here ? Absolutely , sir . So I think 36:35.191 --> 36:37.302 it's something that , like you said , 36:37.302 --> 36:39.357 it's not new . We've been doing this 36:39.357 --> 36:41.413 forever , but we've always struggled 36:41.413 --> 36:43.579 with it . We're still seeing the units 36:43.579 --> 36:45.691 get after , you know , the 7 steps of 36:45.691 --> 36:47.691 the AD and doing it , but how do we 36:47.691 --> 36:50.024 really get that depth and You know , it , 36:50.024 --> 36:51.968 it's , it's not just because we're 36:51.968 --> 36:53.913 losing the cast squadronts because 36:53.913 --> 36:56.079 those tasks are still there regardless 36:56.079 --> 36:55.459 if we're losing that capability . We 36:55.459 --> 36:57.681 still have to get out there and get all 36:57.681 --> 36:59.879 those layers , so . What do we need to 36:59.879 --> 37:02.959 do in order to really get after it and 37:02.959 --> 37:05.040 understand it and it goes back to , 37:05.600 --> 37:07.656 we're so used to always being on the 37:07.656 --> 37:09.656 offense in the attack . But we also 37:09.656 --> 37:11.822 need to understand the defense , and I 37:11.822 --> 37:13.989 think that's one of the biggest things 37:13.989 --> 37:13.250 that we're seeing there's a lesson 37:13.250 --> 37:15.083 learned coming out of Ukraine is 37:15.083 --> 37:17.320 they're in the defense , um , you're 37:17.320 --> 37:19.542 almost seeing World War 1 and World War 37:19.542 --> 37:21.764 2 coming together where it's the trench 37:21.764 --> 37:23.931 warfare and you're at a stalemate . So 37:23.931 --> 37:26.153 if we don't understand how to really do 37:26.153 --> 37:28.264 that defense in depth , I think , you 37:28.264 --> 37:30.376 know , we could really struggle going 37:30.376 --> 37:32.598 into a let's go environment . Now I saw 37:32.598 --> 37:34.598 Major , I think you , you mentioned 37:34.598 --> 37:34.389 that I think our grizzly team's gonna 37:34.389 --> 37:36.270 do a whole episode on kind of 37:36.270 --> 37:38.060 reconnaissance and and security 37:38.060 --> 37:40.116 operations , but particularly in the 37:40.116 --> 37:42.227 defense without , without the cavalry 37:42.227 --> 37:44.393 squadron , um , you know , the , the , 37:44.393 --> 37:46.282 you may have lost the resources , 37:46.282 --> 37:48.449 resources that were nominally supposed 37:48.449 --> 37:50.671 to be helping you with this challenge , 37:50.671 --> 37:52.949 but the problem didn't go away , right ? 37:52.949 --> 37:52.469 Security is still a problem . You just 37:52.469 --> 37:54.691 gotta find a new way to solve it , so . 37:54.691 --> 37:56.691 Um , you know , we got , we , we're 37:56.691 --> 37:58.580 still looking forward to watching 37:58.580 --> 38:00.580 brigades commit enough combat power 38:00.580 --> 38:02.747 forward to establish a security zone , 38:02.747 --> 38:04.969 uh , to win that counter reconnaissance 38:04.969 --> 38:03.909 fight , to beat the enemy's 38:03.909 --> 38:06.076 reconnaissance back far enough just so 38:06.076 --> 38:08.242 they can't be , so the , the blue 4 is 38:08.242 --> 38:10.409 not observed and has an opportunity to 38:10.409 --> 38:12.576 actually conduct , um , the 7 steps of 38:12.576 --> 38:14.687 engagement area development . I think 38:14.687 --> 38:16.798 something we got to continue to coach 38:16.798 --> 38:18.798 our major and really rethink as you 38:18.798 --> 38:20.965 know , we look at the rewrite of FM 30 38:20.965 --> 38:23.076 and what multi-domain operations mean 38:23.076 --> 38:25.131 with constant observation . Uh , and 38:25.131 --> 38:27.187 the rewrite of , of 50 where we talk 38:27.187 --> 38:27.120 about planning operations and how we 38:27.120 --> 38:29.009 have to think about them a little 38:29.009 --> 38:31.120 differently . Uh , I think as we talk 38:31.120 --> 38:33.287 about as we move forward in the army , 38:33.287 --> 38:35.342 uh , defending in depth , I think we 38:35.342 --> 38:35.189 almost need to think about this problem 38:35.189 --> 38:37.469 set in reverse , uh , maybe the ones 38:37.469 --> 38:39.302 that are your positions that are 38:39.302 --> 38:41.302 furthest forward , right , that are 38:41.302 --> 38:43.358 closest to that security zone you're 38:43.358 --> 38:42.989 trying to establish are really your 38:42.989 --> 38:45.156 supplementary positions and then build 38:45.156 --> 38:47.211 your defense backwards , uh , to the 38:47.211 --> 38:49.267 primary , uh , to your alternate and 38:49.267 --> 38:51.378 then primary and subsequent positions 38:51.378 --> 38:53.156 that are behind . Those initial 38:53.156 --> 38:55.156 positions , um , understanding that 38:55.156 --> 38:57.267 you're constantly under observation , 38:57.267 --> 38:59.267 you know , you're probably in all 9 38:59.267 --> 38:59.120 forms of contact from the moment you 38:59.120 --> 39:01.231 start trying to build your engagement 39:01.231 --> 39:03.287 area . Uh , I think we need to think 39:03.287 --> 39:05.287 about our 7 steps . They they still 39:05.287 --> 39:07.009 apply . I think the 7 steps of 39:07.009 --> 39:09.120 engagement area development are still 39:09.120 --> 39:09.000 very solid . We just need to think 39:09.000 --> 39:11.222 differently about how we employ them uh 39:11.222 --> 39:13.444 in a Lisco environment . Um , and , and 39:13.444 --> 39:15.611 playing that defense backwards so that 39:15.611 --> 39:17.778 we've got a manageable security zone , 39:17.778 --> 39:20.000 uh , we're able to protect our critical 39:20.000 --> 39:19.979 enablers like our dozers , our high 39:19.979 --> 39:22.419 hems , or hey , uh , our obstacle and 39:22.419 --> 39:24.197 placement capabilities with the 39:24.197 --> 39:26.308 engineers , um , but still be able to 39:26.308 --> 39:28.530 build that depth and so we don't have a 39:28.530 --> 39:30.697 brittle fragile defense . Yeah , I , I 39:30.697 --> 39:32.919 think one thing we really gotta look at 39:32.919 --> 39:34.975 and talk about . I with the R struck 39:34.975 --> 39:37.197 coming out now , you know , we're going 39:37.197 --> 39:39.252 from having a bed to a dead now , so 39:39.252 --> 39:41.475 now you're losing half your resources . 39:41.475 --> 39:43.363 How do you as commanders actually 39:43.363 --> 39:45.419 prioritize your assets that you have 39:45.419 --> 39:47.641 because you're only gonna have them for 39:47.641 --> 39:47.439 a short amount of time . So if we're 39:47.439 --> 39:49.661 not actually prioritizing it , creating 39:49.661 --> 39:52.350 that FIFIR if our dozers aren't turning , 39:52.479 --> 39:54.201 whatever it is , that , that's 39:54.201 --> 39:56.368 definitely plays into this a lot and . 39:56.368 --> 39:58.368 Got to really take a look at that . 39:58.368 --> 40:00.590 Yeah , I know , I watching , you know , 40:00.590 --> 40:00.196 we're going to see more and more 40:00.196 --> 40:01.974 brigades come here without that 40:01.974 --> 40:04.196 lieutenant colonel and command sergeant 40:04.196 --> 40:06.252 Major headquarters in a in a brigade 40:06.252 --> 40:08.252 engineer battalion that normally is 40:08.252 --> 40:10.418 able to take on a lot of this load for 40:10.418 --> 40:12.529 us . How are we going to redistribute 40:12.529 --> 40:11.956 that load ? Um , how are we going to , 40:12.156 --> 40:14.156 as you said , the dozer's got to be 40:14.156 --> 40:16.378 digging all the time . It can't run out 40:16.378 --> 40:18.323 of fuel . It can't break . Uh , so 40:18.323 --> 40:20.434 who's going to take that challenge on 40:20.434 --> 40:22.323 for . And who's going to do it at 40:22.323 --> 40:24.545 Echelon to make sure it gets passed all 40:24.545 --> 40:26.712 the way down the line so we're digging 40:26.712 --> 40:28.656 in properly , you know , the , the 40:28.656 --> 40:30.712 little things still matter , right ? 40:30.712 --> 40:32.712 Our sync matrix matrices have to be 40:32.712 --> 40:34.656 right . The planning processes and 40:34.656 --> 40:36.712 tools that we use have to be done in 40:36.712 --> 40:36.511 sufficient detail with sufficient 40:36.511 --> 40:38.400 thought of understanding and time 40:38.400 --> 40:40.567 horizons that we can actually do these 40:40.567 --> 40:42.789 things in time and space while we're in 40:42.789 --> 40:45.067 contact with the enemy . Um , but , uh , 40:45.067 --> 40:47.178 I think , you know , we'll continue , 40:47.178 --> 40:49.011 uh , continue to have to look at 40:49.011 --> 40:51.067 brigades and challenge them to build 40:51.067 --> 40:52.955 that defense in depth so they can 40:52.955 --> 40:55.178 actually accept and defeat a mechanized 40:55.178 --> 40:57.344 threat , uh , as opposed to just being 40:57.344 --> 40:59.233 penetrated with a very shallow or 40:59.233 --> 41:01.289 brutal area defense . Well , I think 41:01.289 --> 41:03.344 one thing it kind of goes back to to 41:03.344 --> 41:05.567 one of our earlier topics was that time 41:05.567 --> 41:07.789 management . Are you managing your time 41:07.789 --> 41:09.622 proficiently , especially in the 41:09.622 --> 41:11.844 defense , because you , you only have a 41:11.844 --> 41:11.620 certain amount of time before that 41:11.620 --> 41:14.439 enemy is gonna hit you . Do you have a 41:14.439 --> 41:16.550 solid plan where you're actually able 41:16.550 --> 41:18.606 to rehearse it is where you're gonna 41:18.606 --> 41:20.383 really start getting after that 41:20.383 --> 41:22.495 defensive depth . Yeah , absolutely , 41:22.495 --> 41:22.479 and all those things we've already 41:22.479 --> 41:24.423 talked about , you know , our SUAS 41:24.423 --> 41:26.312 employment , employment of , uh , 41:26.312 --> 41:28.368 effective sensor shooter kill chains 41:28.368 --> 41:30.646 and applying lethality in depth to the , 41:30.646 --> 41:32.812 you know , the 10 standard products we 41:32.812 --> 41:32.760 talked about . I think in defense in 41:32.760 --> 41:34.760 the defense it's even more critical 41:34.760 --> 41:36.927 that these things be be dialed tight . 41:36.927 --> 41:38.982 I mean , uh , uh , a lot of people I 41:38.982 --> 41:41.038 think don't like the defense because 41:41.038 --> 41:40.729 it's a lot more science than art . 41:40.840 --> 41:43.062 Offense is a lot of art , uh , a lot of 41:43.062 --> 41:45.340 science , a lot of math in the defense , 41:45.340 --> 41:47.507 but if we don't do that work well , we 41:47.507 --> 41:49.729 can't manage your time . And at the end 41:49.729 --> 41:49.100 of the day we only want to be on the 41:49.100 --> 41:51.267 defense so long as it takes to go back 41:51.267 --> 41:53.267 on the offense . We certainly don't 41:53.267 --> 41:55.489 want to end up in trenches . Well , I , 41:55.489 --> 41:57.711 I think it kind of leads into our , our 41:57.711 --> 41:59.989 next topic in our final one , you know , 41:59.989 --> 42:02.100 the defense . What is that transition 42:02.100 --> 42:04.267 point and how are we maneuvering going 42:04.267 --> 42:04.219 forward ? Are we using our assets 42:04.219 --> 42:06.219 properly ? And I think that kind of 42:06.219 --> 42:08.552 leads us into our next topic , you know , 42:08.552 --> 42:10.775 move on to our last one , sir , the use 42:10.775 --> 42:12.830 of . Dismounted forces in support of 42:12.830 --> 42:14.997 our mounted elements is something that 42:14.997 --> 42:17.108 we really don't see and operate a lot 42:17.108 --> 42:19.052 on . So how do we actually use our 42:19.052 --> 42:21.108 assets available and able to do that 42:21.108 --> 42:23.163 maneuver , movement to contact , and 42:23.163 --> 42:25.163 then that attack to get out of that 42:25.163 --> 42:27.386 defense ? What do you think are some of 42:27.386 --> 42:29.552 the biggest things when you talk about 42:29.552 --> 42:31.775 using our dismounted and mounted forces 42:31.775 --> 42:31.304 together that that you see you know 42:31.304 --> 42:33.435 struggle with ? Well , first , our 42:33.435 --> 42:35.602 major , I think , um , you know , I'll 42:35.602 --> 42:37.268 plug for JMRC . I mean it's a 42:37.268 --> 42:39.546 fascinating place because you get , uh . 42:39.546 --> 42:41.546 Uh , you get multinational or mixed 42:41.546 --> 42:43.824 formations like oftentimes we'll we'll , 42:43.824 --> 42:46.046 we'll mix a mechanizer an armored force 42:46.046 --> 42:48.268 with a , with a light infantry force or 42:48.268 --> 42:50.213 vice versa . It may be from , uh , 42:50.213 --> 42:52.268 multiple nations . So this is one of 42:52.268 --> 42:54.435 the few CTCs where you really have the 42:54.435 --> 42:56.268 mix of a formation where you can 42:56.268 --> 42:58.213 exercise some new TTPs and thought 42:58.213 --> 43:00.102 processes , uh , paired with some 43:00.102 --> 43:01.879 incredibly complex and severely 43:01.879 --> 43:04.046 restricted terrain . Um , you know , I 43:04.046 --> 43:06.213 think some of the early indications we 43:06.213 --> 43:06.110 saw coming out of Ukraine is , you know , 43:06.540 --> 43:08.659 the , the , the , uh , mythical death 43:08.659 --> 43:10.659 of the tank , the mythical death of 43:10.659 --> 43:12.603 armored formations as being , uh , 43:12.603 --> 43:14.715 effective on the modern battlefield , 43:14.715 --> 43:17.048 and I think what we're seeing is that's , 43:17.048 --> 43:19.159 that's not true as the war moves on . 43:19.159 --> 43:21.381 Um , but we gotta find ways to practice 43:21.381 --> 43:23.603 that at , at our CTCs , and I think Ger 43:23.603 --> 43:25.937 sees a , a great opportunity to do that , 43:25.937 --> 43:25.229 uh , and I , you know , I'm gonna defer 43:25.229 --> 43:27.562 to you as an infantryman , um , to talk , 43:27.562 --> 43:29.673 talk through how you see the best way 43:29.673 --> 43:31.785 to do it . Absolutely , you know , as 43:31.785 --> 43:31.750 an infantryman , we , we don't really 43:31.750 --> 43:33.806 get to know and learn too much about 43:33.806 --> 43:35.972 the tanks until you really get to some 43:35.972 --> 43:38.194 of the CTC . So being able to have that 43:38.194 --> 43:40.528 experience and have that protection , I , 43:40.528 --> 43:42.528 I think is a , a huge asset that we 43:42.528 --> 43:44.250 really need to make sure we're 43:44.250 --> 43:46.472 exploring and getting after it , and it 43:46.472 --> 43:48.750 goes . to World War II , you know , we , 43:48.750 --> 43:50.750 we really started to get proficient 43:50.750 --> 43:52.972 when we started getting our mounted and 43:52.972 --> 43:52.959 dismounted elements working together to 43:52.959 --> 43:55.126 clear things , and it's the same thing 43:55.126 --> 43:57.181 going forward into , uh , the listco 43:57.181 --> 43:59.403 but how do we actually incorporate that 43:59.403 --> 44:01.515 and , and I think like you said , JRC 44:01.515 --> 44:03.459 is probably one of the best places 44:03.459 --> 44:05.459 where we see a mixed variety and we 44:05.459 --> 44:07.681 actually have that opportunity to to do 44:07.681 --> 44:09.903 it . No , and I think , uh , you know , 44:09.903 --> 44:09.560 so mechanizing our formations whether 44:09.560 --> 44:11.719 it's US platforms or or our 44:11.719 --> 44:14.370 multinational allies and partners . Um , 44:14.820 --> 44:16.987 generally need permissive or at best , 44:16.987 --> 44:18.820 you know , moderately restricted 44:18.820 --> 44:20.876 terrain to operate and , and here at 44:20.876 --> 44:22.709 JMRC , most of that's bounded by 44:22.709 --> 44:24.376 severely restricted or highly 44:24.376 --> 44:26.264 restricted terrain , um , so best 44:26.264 --> 44:28.542 practices we've seen here , I think is , 44:28.542 --> 44:30.764 is , um , uh , getting dismounts out to 44:30.764 --> 44:32.987 the flanks into the severely restricted 44:32.987 --> 44:35.098 terrain to clear those , uh , keyhole 44:35.098 --> 44:37.098 shots or , or , you know , uh , you 44:37.098 --> 44:39.098 know , eliminate those danger areas 44:39.098 --> 44:38.830 that are mechanized formation would 44:38.830 --> 44:41.340 have to cross , uh , which then allows 44:41.340 --> 44:43.396 those mechanized . Formations to use 44:43.396 --> 44:45.618 that permissive space to build momentum 44:45.618 --> 44:47.729 and achieve tempo for the brigade and 44:47.729 --> 44:49.951 achieve kind of that shock , um , and , 44:49.951 --> 44:52.118 and uh uh you know uh maximize the use 44:52.118 --> 44:54.118 for our stabilized , uh , precision 44:54.118 --> 44:56.173 weapon systems to really destroy the 44:56.173 --> 44:58.396 mechanized , the enemy mechanized force 44:58.396 --> 45:00.673 in time and place of our choosing . Uh , 45:00.673 --> 45:02.896 so it sounds , sounds weird . You gotta 45:02.896 --> 45:04.784 slow down to go fast , but really 45:04.784 --> 45:07.007 getting those dismounts out in front of 45:07.007 --> 45:06.620 the armored formation , in front of 45:06.620 --> 45:09.260 your mechanized forces to , to reduce 45:09.260 --> 45:11.427 risk so that within then we can strike 45:11.427 --> 45:13.204 at a time and place of our choo 45:13.204 --> 45:15.371 choosing . It's really a best practice 45:15.371 --> 45:17.427 and when we continue to , we hope we 45:17.427 --> 45:19.593 continue to see from BCTs here at JMRC 45:19.593 --> 45:21.593 and I think it's one thing that you 45:21.593 --> 45:23.760 could really talk about in the defense 45:23.760 --> 45:23.669 too is how do you tie that dismounted 45:23.669 --> 45:26.100 force in with that mounted force to to 45:26.100 --> 45:27.989 create that defense and death and 45:27.989 --> 45:29.989 create those obstacles and multiple 45:29.989 --> 45:31.711 dilemmas for the enemy . Yep , 45:31.711 --> 45:33.600 absolutely , and I think you know 45:33.600 --> 45:35.822 understanding . Uh , comes back to when 45:35.822 --> 45:37.767 we're using dismounted and support 45:37.767 --> 45:39.878 mounted or vice versa . It's really a 45:39.878 --> 45:41.989 sophisticated understanding of weapon 45:41.989 --> 45:44.100 systems and capabilities . Understand 45:44.100 --> 45:46.267 what a Carl Gustav can do versus a 120 45:46.267 --> 45:48.433 millimeter main gun system on a tank . 45:48.433 --> 45:48.350 Um , they're both extremely useful . 45:48.429 --> 45:50.762 Just depends on where you're using them , 45:50.762 --> 45:52.651 um , but having a really detailed 45:52.651 --> 45:54.873 understanding , not as an instrument or 45:54.873 --> 45:57.096 a tanker , but as an as sophisticated . 45:57.096 --> 45:59.207 maneuver warrior , uh , understanding 45:59.207 --> 46:01.318 what those weapons can or can't do in 46:01.318 --> 46:03.429 detail and then knowing how to employ 46:03.429 --> 46:03.260 them in support of one another 46:03.260 --> 46:05.149 depending on what we're trying to 46:05.149 --> 46:07.316 achieve is the key to success and that 46:07.316 --> 46:09.538 just requires a lot of study , uh , and 46:09.538 --> 46:11.760 a lot of practice , um , and a lot of , 46:11.760 --> 46:13.982 a lot of deliberate thought when you're 46:13.982 --> 46:16.204 here at the JMRC . I completely agree . 46:16.204 --> 46:16.129 We got to get after that combined arms , 46:16.379 --> 46:19.639 absolutely . All right , well , hey 46:19.639 --> 46:21.750 crew , thanks so much for sharing the 46:21.750 --> 46:23.639 top trend trends where we've been 46:23.639 --> 46:25.750 seeing here at JMRC Again , we've got 46:25.750 --> 46:27.917 some future episodes that we owe you , 46:27.917 --> 46:27.479 uh , you know , we're gonna get the 46:27.479 --> 46:29.423 grizzly team in here to talk about 46:29.423 --> 46:31.646 reconnaissance and surveillance . We're 46:31.646 --> 46:33.868 gonna have a Falcon team , our aviators 46:33.868 --> 46:36.090 come in here and share some thoughts on 46:36.090 --> 46:38.257 airspace management for both UAS and , 46:38.257 --> 46:40.312 and , uh , manned , uh , rotary wing 46:40.312 --> 46:42.368 Aviation . Uh , we'll have a vampire 46:42.368 --> 46:42.159 team for sure come talk to you more 46:42.159 --> 46:44.381 about fires and integrating joint fires 46:44.381 --> 46:46.800 and executing fires in a multinational 46:46.800 --> 46:48.967 environment . Uh , but , uh , for some 46:48.967 --> 46:52.080 for Hawk 7 and Hawk 6 , we appreciate 46:52.080 --> 46:54.136 your time and look forward to seeing 46:54.136 --> 46:56.302 you on the high ground . Hey , so no , 46:56.302 --> 46:58.524 thank you all . For dialing in , I hope 46:58.524 --> 47:00.413 this was extremely beneficial for 47:00.413 --> 47:00.310 everybody out there . If there's other 47:00.310 --> 47:02.421 topics you'd like to hear discussed , 47:02.421 --> 47:04.532 please bring it up and let us know so 47:04.532 --> 47:06.588 we can get these lessons learned out 47:06.588 --> 47:08.810 there . It's extremely beneficial , and 47:08.810 --> 47:10.977 our main job here is to make sure that 47:10.977 --> 47:12.977 BCTs are excelling in coming out of 47:12.977 --> 47:15.143 here ready to go into a let's go . All 47:15.143 --> 47:16.449 right , thanks , our Major .