WEBVTT 00:10.329 --> 00:12.551 Feel free to put your phone and plug it 00:12.551 --> 00:14.607 in if you want , we'll put it on the 00:14.607 --> 00:16.773 charger . Yeah , I'll be all right . I 00:16.773 --> 00:18.885 just have it set up . So just talk to 00:18.885 --> 00:18.840 you , please . I appreciate it . Thank 00:18.850 --> 00:22.819 you and Cam Rogers , if you would , uh 00:23.399 --> 00:26.270 if you mute your microphone uh for just 00:26.309 --> 00:28.420 a few minutes while we do the opening 00:28.420 --> 00:32.209 remarks . Um Just so we don't get your 00:32.220 --> 00:34.709 conversation on the uh the transcript . 00:34.830 --> 00:38.619 All right . Thank you . All right . Uh 00:38.630 --> 00:40.574 Good morning , everyone . Today is 00:40.574 --> 00:44.080 January 31st 2024 and the time is now 00:44.090 --> 00:47.500 9:12 a.m. Eastern Standard Time . We 00:47.509 --> 00:49.620 are back on the record for the formal 00:49.620 --> 00:51.342 hearing regarding the fire and 00:51.342 --> 00:53.176 subsequent fire fatalities . The 00:53.176 --> 00:55.398 firefighter fatalities that occurred on 00:55.398 --> 00:57.620 board the Grande Costa de Wario on July 00:57.620 --> 01:00.849 5th 2023 in Newark , New Jersey . 01:02.189 --> 01:04.300 I am Commander Christian Barger , the 01:04.300 --> 01:06.356 United States Coast Guard . I am the 01:06.356 --> 01:08.356 lead investigating officer for this 01:08.356 --> 01:10.578 first district formal investigation and 01:10.578 --> 01:12.411 the presiding officer over these 01:12.411 --> 01:14.370 proceedings . The first district 01:14.379 --> 01:16.490 commander convened this investigation 01:16.490 --> 01:18.657 under the authority of title 46 United 01:18.657 --> 01:22.279 States code section 63 01 and title 01:22.290 --> 01:24.819 46 Code of federal regulations . Part 01:24.830 --> 01:27.370 four . Our purpose is to investigate 01:27.379 --> 01:29.268 the circumstances surrounding the 01:29.268 --> 01:30.935 aforementioned incident . The 01:30.935 --> 01:33.157 investigation will determine as closely 01:33.157 --> 01:35.046 as possible the circumstances and 01:35.046 --> 01:37.268 factors that contribute to the incident 01:37.268 --> 01:39.157 so that proper recommendations to 01:39.157 --> 01:41.490 prevent similar recurrences can be made . 01:42.870 --> 01:44.814 The Coast Guard investigation team 01:44.814 --> 01:46.648 consists of Lieutenant Commander 01:46.648 --> 01:49.269 Stephanie Moore , Mr Willie Pittman and 01:49.279 --> 01:51.390 Lieutenant Brandon Reed , who is also 01:51.390 --> 01:53.410 the recorder , legal counsel to the 01:53.419 --> 01:55.530 investigation is Lieutenant Commander 01:55.530 --> 01:58.319 Catherine Ward . The National 01:58.330 --> 02:00.330 Transportation Safety Board is also 02:00.330 --> 02:02.552 participating in this hearing . Mr Bart 02:02.552 --> 02:04.608 Barnum is the investigator in charge 02:04.608 --> 02:06.774 for the N TSB who was assisted by Miss 02:06.774 --> 02:10.468 Nancy mcatee . The Coast Guard has 02:10.479 --> 02:12.646 designated five parties in interest to 02:12.646 --> 02:14.757 this investigation . We will now take 02:14.757 --> 02:16.940 appearances for the parties as I call 02:16.949 --> 02:19.520 each . Please state your name and spell 02:19.529 --> 02:22.059 your last name for the record for the 02:22.070 --> 02:23.029 city of Newark . 02:27.080 --> 02:29.619 Good morning , Gary Lipshutz L IP 02:29.630 --> 02:33.270 Shutz . I'm first assistant corporation 02:33.279 --> 02:35.679 counsel for the city of Newark , the 02:35.690 --> 02:37.912 Department of Public Safety Division of 02:37.912 --> 02:40.279 Fire with me as Captain Rogers . I will 02:40.289 --> 02:42.345 be off camera during his testimony . 02:42.350 --> 02:45.860 Good morning . Thank you , uh , for the 02:45.869 --> 02:47.813 Port Authority of New York and New 02:47.813 --> 02:47.740 Jersey . 03:04.309 --> 03:06.420 Uh , Mister Riley . Are you there for 03:06.420 --> 03:08.587 the Port authority of New York and New 03:08.587 --> 03:10.698 Jersey ? Good morning . Uh My name is 03:10.698 --> 03:14.009 Sean Reilly Reilly for the Port 03:14.020 --> 03:16.187 Authority of New York and New Jersey . 03:16.759 --> 03:19.759 All right . Thank you . Uh , Grimaldi 03:19.770 --> 03:23.460 Deep Sea . Good morning . Robert 03:23.470 --> 03:25.949 o'connor from Montgomery mccracken for 03:25.960 --> 03:26.820 Grimaldi 03:27.080 --> 03:30.210 Oconnor . 03:31.300 --> 03:34.380 Ok . Thank you , uh , for Ports America . 03:35.259 --> 03:37.481 Good morning , Gino Zetti from the Firm 03:37.481 --> 03:41.419 of Kalic Zonghe tt I , 03:42.139 --> 03:44.279 ok , thank you . And for American 03:44.289 --> 03:46.479 Maritime Services in New York . Good 03:46.490 --> 03:49.750 morning . Uh , Matthew Pale Pallay of 03:49.759 --> 03:52.309 Fri Logan and Maar for A MS . Ok , 03:52.320 --> 03:56.240 thank you . All right . This 03:56.250 --> 03:57.972 morning we continue our formal 03:57.979 --> 04:00.090 proceedings uh , through virt virtual 04:00.090 --> 04:02.830 witness testimony via Microsoft Teams . 04:03.339 --> 04:05.630 Today's witness is Captain David Rogers 04:05.639 --> 04:07.417 of the Newark Fire Department . 04:07.520 --> 04:09.631 Lieutenant Reid , please swear in the 04:09.631 --> 04:09.529 witness . 04:20.218 --> 04:22.274 Captain Rogers . If you would please 04:22.274 --> 04:24.269 raise your right hand . A false 04:24.279 --> 04:26.279 statement given to an agency of the 04:26.279 --> 04:28.501 United States is punishable by fine and 04:28.501 --> 04:31.299 or imprisonment under title 18 US code 04:31.309 --> 04:33.660 1001 . Knowing this . Do you solemnly 04:33.670 --> 04:35.726 swear the testimony you are about to 04:35.726 --> 04:37.670 give will be the truth , the whole 04:37.670 --> 04:39.726 truth and nothing but the truth . So 04:39.726 --> 04:42.290 help you God , I solemnly swear . All 04:42.299 --> 04:45.149 right . Thank you very much . I have a 04:45.160 --> 04:47.899 few initial questions for the record . 04:48.769 --> 04:50.825 Will you please state and spell your 04:50.825 --> 04:54.730 last name ? Rogers . Rog . Er 04:54.739 --> 04:58.529 S ok . And 05:00.679 --> 05:04.190 uh on July 5th 2023 what was your 05:04.200 --> 05:07.600 profession ? I was a captain uh 05:07.609 --> 05:11.070 for Ladder four . Ok . 05:11.420 --> 05:13.476 And who were you employed by at that 05:13.476 --> 05:15.087 time ? New Fire Department . 05:17.760 --> 05:19.871 What if any professional certificates 05:19.871 --> 05:21.982 or certifications do you hold related 05:21.982 --> 05:25.619 to that position ? Uh Firefighter , one 05:25.630 --> 05:29.450 firefighter , two I CS 100 I 05:29.459 --> 05:33.459 CS 700 I CS 200 off the top 05:33.470 --> 05:35.692 of my head , I can't remember what else 05:35.692 --> 05:37.859 uh , you need for that position . Ok . 05:37.859 --> 05:40.026 And then , uh , how long have you been 05:40.026 --> 05:42.640 employed , uh , in that position at the 05:42.649 --> 05:46.089 time of the casualty on July 5th , 2023 . 05:46.100 --> 05:48.211 Are you asking me as a captain or the 05:48.211 --> 05:50.211 overall time that I've spent on the 05:50.211 --> 05:52.544 department ? Um , let's go with captain . 05:52.544 --> 05:56.500 I asked a captain , uh two years , two 05:56.529 --> 05:58.696 years and then the , your overall time 05:58.696 --> 06:02.220 with the department . Uh 2222 . 06:02.890 --> 06:04.834 Ok . Thank you very much , Captain 06:04.834 --> 06:06.834 Rogers , commander . The witness is 06:06.834 --> 06:10.420 ready to proceed . Ok . Thank you , 06:10.429 --> 06:12.596 Lieutenant Reid . Lieutenant Commander 06:12.596 --> 06:14.818 Moore will leave the questions for this 06:14.818 --> 06:16.985 witness . Lieutenant Commander Moore , 06:16.985 --> 06:16.200 please proceed . 06:22.140 --> 06:24.839 Thank you , Commander . Good morning , 06:24.850 --> 06:28.820 Captain Rogers . Good morning . In your 06:28.829 --> 06:30.940 own words , can you describe what the 06:30.940 --> 06:32.773 duties and responsibilities of a 06:32.773 --> 06:34.940 captain is at Newark Fire Department ? 06:35.609 --> 06:38.130 Uh The duties and responsibility of the 06:38.140 --> 06:41.760 captain or to uh extend training to the 06:41.769 --> 06:45.339 crew ? Uh Once you're promoted , uh you , 06:45.459 --> 06:48.119 you become an officer and your overall 06:48.130 --> 06:50.989 responsibility is to train the 06:51.000 --> 06:53.000 personnel that you work with , uh , 06:53.000 --> 06:55.559 guide them in fires . Um 06:56.779 --> 06:59.001 That's pretty much it off the top of my 06:59.001 --> 07:00.001 head . 07:03.399 --> 07:05.455 Have you ever attended any shipboard 07:05.455 --> 07:07.788 firefighting training ? No , I have not . 07:11.649 --> 07:13.470 Have you ever been offered any 07:13.559 --> 07:16.640 shipboard firefighting training ? Uh No , 07:16.649 --> 07:17.649 I have not . 07:23.390 --> 07:25.660 Did you attended a training uh 07:25.670 --> 07:28.000 surrounding electrical electric vehicle 07:28.010 --> 07:31.519 fires that one . Yes , we did . Can you 07:31.529 --> 07:33.585 tell me a little bit more about what 07:33.585 --> 07:35.696 that training entail ? Uh , it was an 07:35.696 --> 07:38.029 awareness training that we went through . 07:38.029 --> 07:40.307 It was , uh , only a couple hours long . 07:40.570 --> 07:42.769 We sat in on the class and the 07:42.779 --> 07:44.890 gentleman explained to us the hazards 07:44.890 --> 07:47.168 of electric vehicles on the ships . Um , 07:47.168 --> 07:49.223 how they're attached to the , to the 07:49.230 --> 07:52.869 ships and what to avoid while we're 07:52.880 --> 07:53.880 there . 07:59.670 --> 08:01.859 What's the typical structure of your 08:01.869 --> 08:05.579 crew for that ? For ? Uh 08:05.589 --> 08:08.339 depends on the day . Sometimes it's a 08:08.350 --> 08:10.350 captain and two firemen . Sometimes 08:10.350 --> 08:12.017 it's captain and four firemen 08:15.850 --> 08:17.989 on an average incident like a , a 08:18.000 --> 08:20.119 structure fire . How big would your 08:20.130 --> 08:22.609 crew be during that response ? That 08:22.619 --> 08:24.786 would also depend on the roll call for 08:24.786 --> 08:26.897 the day . It would be one captain and 08:26.897 --> 08:28.897 two firefighters or one captain and 08:28.897 --> 08:31.063 four firefighters . Sometimes it would 08:31.063 --> 08:30.970 be 11 captain and three . It really 08:30.980 --> 08:33.202 depends on the roll call for that day . 08:35.840 --> 08:38.340 And when you arrive on an incident , 08:38.400 --> 08:40.344 can you tell me what the different 08:40.344 --> 08:42.511 roles and responsibilities are between 08:42.511 --> 08:44.622 the captain and the firefighters that 08:44.622 --> 08:48.159 are assigned ? Uh Well , it depends on 08:48.169 --> 08:50.502 what company you're in . If you're in a , 08:50.502 --> 08:52.613 a ladder company like I am , uh , two 08:52.613 --> 08:55.109 members would go to the roof to perform 08:55.119 --> 08:57.010 uh perform vertical ventilation 08:57.020 --> 08:59.190 operations , that would be your driver 08:59.200 --> 09:01.367 and the person behind the driver . And 09:01.367 --> 09:03.849 if there is a , a third person , that 09:03.859 --> 09:06.419 person would go interior of the 09:06.429 --> 09:07.707 building with myself . 09:15.830 --> 09:18.190 Are there any policies or procedures 09:18.200 --> 09:20.890 that dictate that , that's the , the 09:20.900 --> 09:23.690 typical response or is that just based 09:23.700 --> 09:25.809 on experience that's based on 09:25.820 --> 09:27.876 experience ? I don't believe there's 09:27.876 --> 09:29.820 any , anything written down that , 09:29.820 --> 09:31.764 that's how it goes . It's just how 09:31.764 --> 09:33.987 things you've done in North . If , uh , 09:33.987 --> 09:35.876 if there is another crew that has 09:35.876 --> 09:37.987 already gone to the roof , all four , 09:37.987 --> 09:40.042 you know , 33 to 4 members will stay 09:40.042 --> 09:42.419 together and , and go into the , uh , 09:42.429 --> 09:43.651 the building itself . 09:49.169 --> 09:51.250 Are there policies specific to an 09:51.260 --> 09:53.204 incident type ? For instance , the 09:53.210 --> 09:56.140 structure fire versus a vehicle fire or 09:56.150 --> 09:59.039 a garage fire or everything ? We do 09:59.049 --> 10:00.989 have general owners for each 10:01.000 --> 10:04.090 specifically . Are there any general 10:04.099 --> 10:07.080 orders for responding at the port of 10:07.460 --> 10:09.349 the ? That's my knowledge . Now , 10:13.840 --> 10:16.140 are there any manning requirements for 10:16.150 --> 10:18.483 New York Fire Department ? For instance , 10:18.483 --> 10:20.650 what each company must have to be able 10:20.650 --> 10:23.390 to respond ? No , we don't have a 10:23.500 --> 10:25.750 minimum standard for the , 10:32.679 --> 10:34.489 what are the equipment carriage 10:34.500 --> 10:36.500 requirements for each firefighter ? 10:38.659 --> 10:40.492 Ok . So each firefighter and the 10:40.492 --> 10:42.715 standard gear that they issued from the 10:42.715 --> 10:44.715 fire department would be their full 10:44.715 --> 10:46.659 bunker gear . So there'll be pants 10:46.659 --> 10:49.030 jacket , um , Nomex hood , uh , gloves . 10:49.099 --> 10:52.669 Also the , uh , the helmet , um , on 10:52.679 --> 10:54.790 top of that , the department provides 10:54.790 --> 10:56.760 an SCB A for them . Uh , it has an 10:56.770 --> 10:59.789 integrated pass alarm system in it and , 10:59.799 --> 11:01.910 uh , also a secondary system where we 11:01.910 --> 11:04.077 would be able to attach another bottle 11:04.077 --> 11:06.355 to that , uh , that air pack if needed . 11:06.400 --> 11:08.780 So um you would be able to supply that 11:08.789 --> 11:12.280 firefighter with extra air . Um Other 11:12.289 --> 11:14.650 than that , the captain is also issued 11:14.659 --> 11:17.539 a flashlight and a thermal imaging 11:17.549 --> 11:21.210 camera . And uh then 11:21.219 --> 11:24.030 there's also uh various forcible entry 11:24.039 --> 11:26.261 tools that are on a ladder company . Uh 11:26.261 --> 11:29.299 Some are provided by the city and some 11:29.309 --> 11:31.520 guys purchase and put on the rig for 11:31.619 --> 11:33.563 various reasons . Uh Things in our 11:33.563 --> 11:35.730 first two area that we may come across 11:35.730 --> 11:37.730 that we know that we need , but the 11:37.730 --> 11:39.841 city doesn't provide that equipment . 11:39.841 --> 11:41.897 So we find something that works good 11:41.897 --> 11:41.719 for us . We purchase it , throw it on , 11:41.840 --> 11:45.750 we can use it . You 11:45.760 --> 11:47.649 mentioned the S CD A . Is there a 11:47.649 --> 11:50.270 standard size that everyone is required 11:50.280 --> 11:53.000 to carry ? Yes , it's a 4500 P si 11:53.010 --> 11:55.419 bottle . Uh last anywhere from it's 11:55.429 --> 11:57.596 considered a 30 minute bottle , but it 11:57.596 --> 11:59.651 lasts anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes 11:59.651 --> 12:03.539 depending on your exertion . What about 12:03.549 --> 12:06.119 uh radio ? Uh Yes , we're also giving a 12:06.130 --> 12:08.352 radio . I'm sorry about that . I forgot 12:08.352 --> 12:08.140 about that complain . 12:12.309 --> 12:14.559 And what's the carriage requirement for 12:14.570 --> 12:16.626 that radio ? Is it required to be on 12:16.626 --> 12:19.530 you at all times ? Yes . Uh Not in the 12:19.539 --> 12:21.706 firehouse . It's not required to be on 12:21.706 --> 12:23.928 you at all times in the firehouse . But 12:23.928 --> 12:26.095 um pretty much everybody keeps them on 12:26.095 --> 12:28.206 to on them at all times . The city is 12:28.206 --> 12:30.261 provided a radio strap force . So it 12:30.261 --> 12:32.483 just kind of throws over our shoulder . 12:32.483 --> 12:32.320 So the mic would be on your shoulder 12:32.330 --> 12:34.349 and , uh , the radio is down low on 12:34.359 --> 12:35.359 your hip 12:40.059 --> 12:43.169 for the night of July 5th , 2023 . Were 12:43.179 --> 12:45.299 you notified to respond to a fire at 12:45.309 --> 12:48.440 Port Newark ? Yes . And how were you 12:48.450 --> 12:51.890 notified of that fire VRC AD system ? 12:56.349 --> 12:58.549 Which , uh , apparatus or , or crew 12:58.559 --> 13:00.559 were you with that night ? I was on 13:00.559 --> 13:02.726 Ladder four tour one . I was working a 13:02.726 --> 13:04.615 mutual swap for another captain . 13:07.400 --> 13:09.567 Was this the first time you had worked 13:09.567 --> 13:11.678 with that crew or was the rest of the 13:11.678 --> 13:13.733 crew ? No , it wasn't . I had worked 13:13.733 --> 13:17.590 with them several times before . When , 13:17.599 --> 13:19.321 when did you arrive on scene ? 13:21.369 --> 13:23.530 Uh shortly after the first new engine 13:23.539 --> 13:25.372 company , I'm not sure the exact 13:25.372 --> 13:28.109 timeline . Um We were the first 13:28.119 --> 13:30.286 companies to get there , but uh Ladder 13:30.286 --> 13:32.341 Four has a slightly delayed response 13:32.341 --> 13:34.341 time because there's a lower bridge 13:34.341 --> 13:37.130 closer to the firehouse so the engine 13:37.140 --> 13:39.140 can fit under that bridge , but the 13:39.140 --> 13:41.029 ladder can't . So we have to go a 13:41.029 --> 13:43.251 different way to get there . So there's 13:43.251 --> 13:45.307 a slightly delayed response for when 13:45.307 --> 13:45.289 Ladder four reaches the area . That 13:45.299 --> 13:47.190 engine 27 is down the port . 13:52.909 --> 13:56.559 Who was your crew that night ? Uh It 13:56.570 --> 13:59.559 was myself uh firefighter Brooks , 13:59.830 --> 14:02.419 firefighter , Soto and firefighter the 14:02.429 --> 14:02.880 solo . 14:06.559 --> 14:08.969 What were their assignments when you 14:08.979 --> 14:12.690 arrived at the instant ? Ok . So , uh 14:14.460 --> 14:16.869 the normal assignments were should have 14:16.880 --> 14:20.020 been uh Brooks and Soto together , but 14:20.030 --> 14:23.030 Brooks stayed with me . Um And SOTO was 14:23.039 --> 14:25.880 also with uh the solo . Yeah , 14:29.090 --> 14:32.429 when you arrived on the scene uh on 14:32.440 --> 14:35.000 July 5th 2023 who provided your initial 14:35.010 --> 14:38.200 tasking . Uh The initial tasking would 14:38.210 --> 14:40.432 have been Deputy Chief Carlo because we 14:40.432 --> 14:42.766 got there uh slightly behind the engine . 14:42.766 --> 14:44.821 The engine was already on top of the 14:44.821 --> 14:46.766 ship . Um When we walked up to the 14:46.766 --> 14:48.821 deputy chief where I asked him if he 14:48.821 --> 14:50.988 had wanted us to go up to uh help them 14:50.988 --> 14:52.210 overhaul on deck 12 , 14:54.809 --> 14:57.409 who was the incident commander of 100 14:57.460 --> 15:01.380 arrival when I got there . Um I 15:01.390 --> 15:03.446 believe when we first pulled up , it 15:03.446 --> 15:06.200 was uh Italian Chief Cup Cup . And then 15:06.380 --> 15:08.547 after all the guys were dressed and we 15:08.547 --> 15:10.769 walked up to the uh to the loading area 15:10.769 --> 15:13.809 on the ship at the , the the rear ramp . 15:13.900 --> 15:15.789 Uh Deputy Chief Carucci had taken 15:15.789 --> 15:16.900 charge at that time 15:20.460 --> 15:23.239 and who are you reporting to directly 15:23.559 --> 15:27.150 as directly in the in the command 15:27.159 --> 15:29.359 structure ? I would directly report to 15:29.729 --> 15:32.650 uh battalion Chief Kepco but because he 15:32.659 --> 15:34.826 was on top of the ship , I reported to 15:34.826 --> 15:36.770 the highest officer , which was uh 15:36.770 --> 15:37.770 deputy chief . 15:43.260 --> 15:45.409 What interactions if any did you have 15:45.419 --> 15:48.340 with the ship's crew ? The little 15:48.349 --> 15:50.627 interaction I had with the ship's crew . 15:50.627 --> 15:53.950 Um I didn't really talk to anybody that 15:53.960 --> 15:56.016 was there . That was the chief level 15:56.016 --> 15:58.071 officers that were talking to them , 15:58.071 --> 16:00.293 but standing next to them , I could see 16:00.293 --> 16:02.349 that there was a very large language 16:02.349 --> 16:04.571 barrier . Um A lot of the crew couldn't 16:04.571 --> 16:06.738 speak English and the few that could , 16:06.738 --> 16:07.793 it was very broken 16:11.690 --> 16:14.979 at any time . Were you made aware if a 16:14.989 --> 16:17.669 fixed fire suppression system was used 16:17.679 --> 16:19.669 on the vessel ? I was not . No . 16:22.530 --> 16:25.179 Where did you first enter the ship from 16:25.580 --> 16:27.830 on the right side of the ship ? I 16:27.840 --> 16:30.559 believe that's the uh starboard side , 16:30.909 --> 16:32.380 uh the middle stairwell . 16:35.099 --> 16:38.969 How did you progress up the , the decks 16:38.979 --> 16:40.719 of the vessel ? We climbed the 16:40.729 --> 16:42.840 stairwell all the way up to the top ? 16:44.289 --> 16:46.400 Lieutenant Reid . Can you please pull 16:46.400 --> 16:50.159 up Coast Guard exhibit seven ? Uh B I 16:50.169 --> 16:50.659 believe 17:03.179 --> 17:05.179 you can zoom in just a little bit . 17:18.068 --> 17:20.288 K . Rogers . Are you familiar with ? 17:22.208 --> 17:24.152 Just page one is fine . Um Are you 17:24.152 --> 17:25.208 familiar with this 17:28.780 --> 17:30.836 uh the the drawing that's on deck 10 17:30.839 --> 17:33.061 right now ? That's what you're asking . 17:33.061 --> 17:36.979 Yes . Ok . You , you said you entered 17:37.050 --> 17:39.161 the vessel and you were using a stair 17:39.180 --> 17:41.949 stairwell . Are you aware if that 17:41.959 --> 17:44.689 stairwell is on this document ? Uh Yes , 17:44.699 --> 17:46.650 it's at the very bottom of the uh 17:46.660 --> 17:49.310 document in the middle as an X crossing 17:49.319 --> 17:51.152 through it ? Yes , right there . 17:57.250 --> 18:00.400 Did someone from the ship you up the 18:00.410 --> 18:02.466 decks or did you find your own way ? 18:02.699 --> 18:04.921 Yes , someone from the ship escorted us 18:04.921 --> 18:08.910 up the deck . Can you 18:09.599 --> 18:12.060 um do you know who that person was from 18:12.069 --> 18:14.125 the the crew ? No , I have no idea . 18:14.125 --> 18:17.890 I'm sorry in 18:17.900 --> 18:21.599 this area that you were going up . 18:21.609 --> 18:23.910 Can you describe it to me , like , was 18:23.920 --> 18:26.087 there stairs ? What was , what did you 18:26.087 --> 18:28.309 see ? Yeah , very steep stairs . And it 18:28.309 --> 18:30.420 almost seemed like every other set of 18:30.420 --> 18:32.531 stairs there was a door that we would 18:32.531 --> 18:36.479 come to . Um , and , uh , 18:37.439 --> 18:39.606 it was just , stairs were very steep . 18:39.770 --> 18:41.826 I guess that's standard for a ship . 18:41.826 --> 18:43.714 I'm very not familiar with that . 18:51.349 --> 18:53.589 Were you made aware of the conditions , 18:53.599 --> 18:56.619 um , on deck 10 before you entered it ? 18:57.109 --> 18:58.170 No , we were not . 19:01.079 --> 19:03.246 What were your initial observations of 19:03.246 --> 19:07.020 the conditions on deck 10 ? Uh And 19:07.500 --> 19:09.722 are we talking about after we found out 19:09.722 --> 19:11.722 that there was a fire down there or 19:11.722 --> 19:14.000 prior to , prior to the first time you , 19:14.000 --> 19:16.000 you entered the deck ? Uh The first 19:16.000 --> 19:18.056 time I entered the deck was for fire 19:18.056 --> 19:20.222 suppression . So , uh that wasn't when 19:20.222 --> 19:22.229 we were ascending the stairwell 19:22.239 --> 19:26.040 initially . Ok . So let , 19:27.060 --> 19:30.839 let's keep going on , um , your 19:30.849 --> 19:33.229 initial entry then . So you were 19:33.239 --> 19:35.949 climbing up . Did you stop on any decks ? 19:35.979 --> 19:38.650 Where did you end up as we ended up on 19:38.670 --> 19:40.979 deck 12 at the top ? Uh There was a , a 19:40.989 --> 19:44.640 lower , like a lower area on deck 12 19:44.699 --> 19:46.810 and then we climbed up a small set of 19:46.810 --> 19:50.500 stairs and we were up by the cars . Um 19:52.770 --> 19:56.709 So after that , that's when uh couple 19:56.719 --> 19:58.941 minutes after being up , there was when 19:58.941 --> 20:01.052 we were told that someone came across 20:01.052 --> 20:02.830 the deck to speak to , um , the 20:02.830 --> 20:06.050 representative from the ship . And he , 20:06.060 --> 20:08.171 he referred back to us that there was 20:08.171 --> 20:10.171 fire below the decks at that time . 20:13.010 --> 20:15.069 On this page , page three of the 20:15.079 --> 20:17.800 document . Do you recall where you came 20:17.810 --> 20:21.530 out on deck 12 ? All right . 20:21.540 --> 20:24.540 So , uh deck 12 , it will be to the , 20:25.400 --> 20:27.567 there's two red boxes , there's one on 20:27.567 --> 20:29.456 the right that has lines slashing 20:29.456 --> 20:31.622 through it and then there's one in the 20:31.622 --> 20:33.844 middle . Uh , so roughly to the left of 20:33.844 --> 20:35.844 that one in the middle was where we 20:35.844 --> 20:39.160 popped out . Ok . Thank you . And then 20:39.170 --> 20:42.619 you said you um met a representative 20:42.630 --> 20:44.930 from the ship . Was that a different 20:44.989 --> 20:47.130 person ? I didn't , I didn't meet him 20:47.140 --> 20:49.969 personally . Uh He was standing talking 20:49.979 --> 20:52.310 to battalion chief cup code . Ok . So 20:52.319 --> 20:54.375 that was a different person than who 20:54.375 --> 20:56.486 was escalated and who brought us up . 20:56.486 --> 20:58.708 Yes . Yeah . Do me a favor just because 20:58.708 --> 21:00.708 this is being recorded because this 21:00.708 --> 21:02.541 will be transcribed . Uh Let the 21:02.541 --> 21:04.652 commander finish completely with what 21:04.652 --> 21:07.270 she says her question and then , and 21:07.280 --> 21:09.569 then she'll give you the chance to um 21:09.579 --> 21:12.380 answer it just flows better . Ok . Just 21:12.390 --> 21:14.279 let her finish . Ok . I'm sorry , 21:14.279 --> 21:16.612 what's her ? No , that's OK . Thank you , 21:16.612 --> 21:18.839 Mr Lipsitz . Um ok . So it's a 21:18.849 --> 21:20.930 different person that had escorted . 21:20.939 --> 21:24.250 You tell me what happened next 21:26.579 --> 21:29.239 after the person who escorted us up or 21:29.250 --> 21:31.472 after we were made aware that there was 21:31.472 --> 21:33.472 fire below that after you were made 21:33.472 --> 21:36.680 aware that there was fire below . Um We 21:36.689 --> 21:39.040 made our way across the deck . Uh There 21:39.050 --> 21:41.050 was multiple cars that were chained 21:41.050 --> 21:42.883 down . So it took us a couple of 21:42.883 --> 21:44.994 minutes to get across , stepping over 21:44.994 --> 21:47.217 everything and we made it over to the , 21:47.217 --> 21:49.272 uh the far stairwell in the top left 21:49.272 --> 21:50.383 corner of the map . 21:55.819 --> 21:58.180 You made your way over to the stairwell . 21:58.239 --> 22:02.130 Um Then what happened ? Uh , 22:02.140 --> 22:04.310 after that , uh I believe it was 22:04.319 --> 22:07.550 Battalion Chief Maresa , um , made his 22:07.560 --> 22:09.819 way with , uh two guys , but I'm not 22:09.829 --> 22:12.900 sure who they were down to deck 11 . Uh , 22:12.910 --> 22:15.219 deck 10 . And I also believe deck nine 22:15.229 --> 22:17.340 to check to see if there was fire and 22:17.340 --> 22:20.619 they found smoke on heavy smoke on 11 , 22:20.790 --> 22:23.979 uh , smoke on 10 and nothing on nine . 22:27.000 --> 22:29.056 And how , how were you made aware of 22:29.056 --> 22:31.790 that ? How is that communicated ? Uh , 22:31.800 --> 22:34.170 it was communicated , I believe via , 22:34.180 --> 22:36.790 uh , face to face when they came back 22:36.800 --> 22:40.579 up and just to clarify all of that 22:40.589 --> 22:43.180 is through that same stairwell . Yes , 22:43.189 --> 22:47.050 that's correct . At what 22:47.060 --> 22:50.670 point did you , uh , use that 22:50.680 --> 22:53.119 stairwell ? Ok . Uh , the initial 22:53.130 --> 22:56.209 attack line I was not on . Um , I came 22:56.219 --> 22:58.330 down after those guys came out , uh , 22:58.330 --> 23:00.386 myself and firefighter Brooks , uh , 23:00.386 --> 23:03.640 descended the ladder with another , uh , 23:04.099 --> 23:06.449 attack line , but we ended up leaving 23:06.459 --> 23:10.430 that at , uh , deck 11 by the door and 23:10.439 --> 23:12.790 then going all the way down to 10 . Uh , 23:12.800 --> 23:14.760 we met up with Chief Maresa at the 23:14.770 --> 23:17.369 bulkhead door and added some extra 23:17.380 --> 23:19.491 pushing in some extra line and then , 23:19.491 --> 23:21.713 uh , continued in to follow the line in 23:21.713 --> 23:24.109 to , uh , knock down whatever fire was 23:24.119 --> 23:26.119 left , uh , by the initial attack . 23:27.959 --> 23:30.015 Ok . Just a point of clarification . 23:30.015 --> 23:32.070 When you're saying attack line , are 23:32.070 --> 23:34.380 you referring to a , a charged toes ? 23:34.640 --> 23:35.060 Yes . 23:40.079 --> 23:42.357 And what deck was that , that you were ? 23:43.020 --> 23:44.030 I was on deck 10 23:46.859 --> 23:49.310 now that you're coming into deck 10 the 23:49.319 --> 23:51.319 first time , what were your initial 23:51.319 --> 23:53.152 observations of the conditions , 23:53.680 --> 23:55.958 initial observation and the conditions , 23:55.958 --> 23:58.160 the smoke was , uh , it was , you were 23:58.170 --> 24:01.839 visible for about 1010 , maybe 15 ft 24:01.849 --> 24:04.119 into the uh into the environment . Once 24:04.130 --> 24:06.849 we got in , um , you got a little 24:06.859 --> 24:08.839 further in visibility gate , got a 24:08.849 --> 24:11.071 little bit worse . If you were standing 24:11.071 --> 24:13.293 up , you really couldn't see anything . 24:13.293 --> 24:13.250 If you were kneeling down , you could 24:13.260 --> 24:15.427 seep back to the bulkhead door and see 24:15.427 --> 24:17.649 the light . And then inevitably when we 24:17.649 --> 24:20.329 made the turn on the line , uh the 24:20.339 --> 24:21.950 light from the bulkhead door 24:21.950 --> 24:24.117 disappeared and everything else in the 24:24.117 --> 24:26.390 room was pretty much black . I , I 24:26.400 --> 24:28.609 would say it was a mixture between 24:28.619 --> 24:30.786 there being no lighting in the room at 24:30.786 --> 24:33.500 all and also the smoke from the fire 24:35.410 --> 24:37.521 lieutenant . Can you go to page one , 24:37.521 --> 24:38.521 please ? 24:44.790 --> 24:47.239 Right . You mentioned smoke . Do you 24:47.250 --> 24:49.569 remember what , what color the smoke 24:49.579 --> 24:52.479 was when you first observed it ? Uh To 24:52.489 --> 24:54.600 me it was black . I wouldn't , it's , 24:54.600 --> 24:56.600 it would be hard to judge in a room 24:56.600 --> 24:58.545 that has no light . What color the 24:58.545 --> 25:00.760 smoke is . What about flames ? Did you 25:00.770 --> 25:03.939 see any flames . Uh Yes , it did . Can 25:03.949 --> 25:06.670 you describe on the , the document that 25:06.680 --> 25:09.199 we have up where you saw those flames ? 25:09.859 --> 25:13.849 Ok . So roughly the 25:13.859 --> 25:16.780 middle line of the ship , there's a 20 . 25:18.849 --> 25:20.738 Yes . Right , right about there . 25:24.380 --> 25:26.380 And for the record , the witness is 25:26.380 --> 25:28.989 indicating an area near the number 20 25:29.000 --> 25:32.660 on the line going through the middle 25:32.670 --> 25:33.699 of the ship . 25:39.380 --> 25:41.602 You mentioned a few pieces of equipment 25:41.602 --> 25:44.589 that you had , um , with you . Is there 25:44.599 --> 25:46.710 anything , is there any other special 25:46.710 --> 25:48.877 equipment that you had on you when you 25:48.877 --> 25:51.489 made entry on deck 10 ? No . Ok . 25:53.650 --> 25:56.959 Did you ever go on air ? Yes . 25:58.160 --> 26:00.859 When did you go on air ? Just before we 26:00.869 --> 26:04.479 entered the bulkhead door ? Did you 26:04.489 --> 26:06.767 have your radio with you ? Yes , I did . 26:07.729 --> 26:10.979 Was it working ? It was working at the 26:10.989 --> 26:13.156 top deck . It did not work and I found 26:13.156 --> 26:14.711 that out later below deck . 26:20.150 --> 26:22.317 What about you mentioned you were with 26:22.317 --> 26:24.428 firefighter Brooks . Um , do you know 26:24.428 --> 26:26.349 if he had his radio with him ? He 26:26.359 --> 26:29.099 should have had it with him . Yes . Did 26:29.109 --> 26:31.280 you see it or hear it at all ? I did 26:31.290 --> 26:33.401 not visually inspect to see if he had 26:33.401 --> 26:35.512 his radio on him , but he did have it 26:35.512 --> 26:37.068 on him throughout the day . 26:44.770 --> 26:46.881 You mentioned seeing a , a few people 26:46.881 --> 26:49.979 as you access different decks when you 26:49.989 --> 26:52.359 access deck 10 . Was there anyone at 26:52.369 --> 26:54.579 the door for the stairway ? Yes . 26:54.589 --> 26:57.329 Battalion Chief Maresca . And uh , I 26:57.339 --> 26:59.650 believe there was another probationary 26:59.660 --> 27:01.716 firefighter that was kneeling behind 27:01.716 --> 27:03.938 him on the wall and another firefighter 27:03.938 --> 27:06.049 that was also there , but , uh , they 27:06.049 --> 27:08.271 did not make entry . And , uh , I don't 27:08.271 --> 27:09.660 remember who they were . 27:14.410 --> 27:17.739 Is there someone doing access control 27:17.750 --> 27:21.729 to deck 10 ? Um You're gonna have 27:21.739 --> 27:23.906 to explain access control to me . Um I 27:23.906 --> 27:25.961 think we've heard previous testimony 27:25.961 --> 27:28.183 that it was an immediately dangerous to 27:28.183 --> 27:31.859 life or health area . 10 was someone 27:31.869 --> 27:34.750 doing access control for that area ? Uh 27:34.760 --> 27:37.530 That would be , if you're talking in 27:37.540 --> 27:39.651 fire department terms , that would be 27:39.651 --> 27:41.818 uh Battalion Chief Maresca , I believe 27:41.818 --> 27:43.207 would be handling that . 27:45.579 --> 27:47.199 How , how was that done ? 27:53.479 --> 27:55.535 I'm not understanding the question . 27:55.535 --> 27:57.590 I'm sorry , let me rephrase it . Was 27:57.590 --> 27:59.646 anyone keeping accountability of who 27:59.646 --> 28:02.270 was going in and out of duct tape ? Yes . 28:02.280 --> 28:04.391 Uh Battalion chicken rescue was , was 28:04.391 --> 28:06.724 keeping track of who's going in and out . 28:06.724 --> 28:08.391 Ok . And how was , how was he 28:08.391 --> 28:10.599 completing that task ? Um Mentally , I 28:10.609 --> 28:12.442 would assume because he was only 28:12.442 --> 28:14.498 letting certain groups of guys in at 28:14.498 --> 28:16.609 the time . Uh We weren't flooding the 28:16.609 --> 28:20.410 entire area with people . Do you know 28:20.420 --> 28:22.979 if anyone was assigned the role of 28:22.989 --> 28:26.459 safety officer ? Uh Not to my knowledge , 28:26.469 --> 28:29.339 but that would normally be uh battalion 28:29.349 --> 28:32.849 two . Um For us , 28:33.160 --> 28:35.510 that would be the safety officer . Uh 28:35.520 --> 28:37.631 Otherwise I don't know who that falls 28:37.631 --> 28:37.270 on . 28:44.170 --> 28:47.560 So as you made entry , who entered the 28:47.569 --> 28:50.439 space with you , uh Firefighter Brooks 28:50.449 --> 28:52.393 entered the space first and then I 28:52.393 --> 28:53.949 followed right behind him , 28:56.969 --> 28:59.660 right ? And we have the exhibit up if 28:59.670 --> 29:01.726 it aids your testimony . But can you 29:01.726 --> 29:04.003 describe the events that happened , um , 29:04.003 --> 29:06.170 upon your , your entry into this space 29:06.170 --> 29:08.281 and then further as while you were in 29:08.281 --> 29:10.503 the space ? Ok . So we entered into the 29:10.503 --> 29:12.670 space and followed the wall . Uh , the 29:12.670 --> 29:14.837 hose line was already pre laid because 29:14.837 --> 29:16.892 the , the initial attack line , uh , 29:16.892 --> 29:19.059 that was Engine Company 27 and , and , 29:19.059 --> 29:21.059 uh , two other firefighters from my 29:21.059 --> 29:23.170 crew had already gone in there . Um , 29:23.170 --> 29:25.503 so we just followed the line to the tip . 29:25.503 --> 29:27.650 Uh , it looped out into the middle of 29:27.660 --> 29:29.882 the ship and it was roughly about , I'd 29:29.882 --> 29:32.609 say 75 to 100 ft of line into the ship . 29:34.630 --> 29:37.089 Can you help us understand where on 29:37.099 --> 29:39.959 this document ? That line would have 29:39.969 --> 29:43.420 led , uh , almost to that 20 29:43.790 --> 29:46.349 roughly where that 20 was where we 29:46.359 --> 29:49.709 spoke of earlier . Ok . Just for the 29:49.719 --> 29:51.910 record , we indicated that same area 29:51.920 --> 29:54.609 near the number 20 on the line running 29:54.619 --> 29:56.730 through the middle of the ship . Ok . 29:56.730 --> 30:00.530 And then , uh , what happened next ? So , 30:00.540 --> 30:02.596 uh , firefighter Brooks and I were , 30:02.596 --> 30:04.707 were on the tip and , uh , we noticed 30:04.707 --> 30:06.969 that there was a small pockets of fire 30:07.060 --> 30:09.250 throughout the floor . Um , they 30:09.260 --> 30:11.371 weren't very big and then there was a 30:11.371 --> 30:13.538 little bit left in what appeared to be 30:13.538 --> 30:15.704 a forklift , um , that was in front of 30:15.704 --> 30:17.649 us . And so we were basically just 30:17.649 --> 30:19.704 knocking down what fire was left and 30:19.704 --> 30:21.927 then uh trying to put out the fire that 30:21.927 --> 30:24.670 was on in the uh in what we thought was 30:24.680 --> 30:26.791 a forklift , I guess turned out later 30:26.791 --> 30:30.369 to be the cheap . Um So there was still 30:30.380 --> 30:32.547 fire inside that , but we weren't , we 30:32.547 --> 30:34.602 didn't approach the Jeep , we didn't 30:34.602 --> 30:36.602 approach the cars . Um There was no 30:36.602 --> 30:38.824 need to , so we just stayed back . Uh I 30:38.824 --> 30:40.880 was using the thermal imaging camera 30:40.880 --> 30:40.489 and holding it up in front of 30:40.500 --> 30:42.667 firefighter Brooks so that he could uh 30:42.667 --> 30:45.000 visually see the fire and knock it down . 30:45.339 --> 30:48.400 Uh Shortly thereafter , uh Engine 16 30:48.449 --> 30:51.040 came up behind us on the line and they 30:51.050 --> 30:52.883 were standing just to my right . 30:55.530 --> 30:59.130 Ok . And just for getting our bearings . 30:59.140 --> 31:03.000 Same area . Uh near number 20 . Yes . 31:06.550 --> 31:10.410 All right . So , um , 16 31:10.420 --> 31:12.420 there . What , what happened next ? 31:13.010 --> 31:15.121 Yeah . So 116 , engine was there with 31:15.121 --> 31:17.232 us next to us . I noticed that the uh 31:17.232 --> 31:19.399 steel was starting to buckle on one of 31:19.399 --> 31:22.349 the um , one of the I beans . 31:23.170 --> 31:25.226 So it looked like it was starting to 31:25.226 --> 31:28.670 bend a little bit . And that's normally 31:28.920 --> 31:30.642 because of the , the white hot 31:30.642 --> 31:32.753 condition that was above it . We were 31:32.753 --> 31:34.809 trying to cool it down , but it just 31:34.809 --> 31:34.459 wasn't really working . So we back the 31:34.469 --> 31:36.949 line up a little bit and uh I tried to 31:36.959 --> 31:39.292 communicate it with the battalion chief . 31:39.292 --> 31:41.515 That's what was going on in there . But 31:41.515 --> 31:43.515 the radio kept , um , I , I call it 31:43.515 --> 31:45.459 pooping . It just made a , a noise 31:45.459 --> 31:47.292 where you can't communicate with 31:47.292 --> 31:49.589 anybody . So I gave my thermal imaging 31:49.599 --> 31:51.821 camera to firefighter Brooks so that he 31:51.821 --> 31:53.488 could continue uh suppression 31:53.488 --> 31:55.377 operations with 16 engine . And I 31:55.377 --> 31:57.599 followed the line back to the battalion 31:57.599 --> 31:59.877 chiefs to advise him of the conditions . 31:59.877 --> 32:02.030 When you say you saw uh unaging 32:02.290 --> 32:04.680 starting to buckle in relation to the , 32:04.689 --> 32:07.022 the ship , was that on the ceiling ? On , 32:08.719 --> 32:10.052 it was on the ceiling . 32:17.760 --> 32:20.219 And then when you say you , you gave 32:20.229 --> 32:22.396 your tick to firefighter Brooks , um , 32:22.400 --> 32:25.859 and left him with engine 16 . Um 32:26.500 --> 32:29.270 Did you ever see anyone from 16 with 32:29.280 --> 32:31.869 him before you departed the deck ? Uh , 32:31.880 --> 32:33.769 can you say that again ? I didn't 32:33.769 --> 32:35.991 really hear the question . Did you ever 32:35.991 --> 32:37.936 see anyone with firefighter Brooks 32:37.936 --> 32:40.160 before you went to make the ? Yes , the 32:40.170 --> 32:41.892 members of engine 16 were with 32:41.892 --> 32:44.003 firefighter Brooks when I went back . 32:49.119 --> 32:51.939 Is there some policy or procedure that 32:51.949 --> 32:55.050 talks about firefighter relief when a , 32:55.060 --> 32:57.171 when a team needs to , to separate or 32:57.171 --> 33:00.890 split up ? Uh , just the two and two 33:00.900 --> 33:01.900 out one . 33:05.260 --> 33:07.599 Um , lieutenant , you could pull down 33:07.609 --> 33:09.053 the exhibit . Thank you . 33:11.400 --> 33:15.020 So , before you left deck 10 , how are 33:15.030 --> 33:18.160 you communicating inside the space ? Uh , 33:18.170 --> 33:20.250 basically with other firefighters . 33:20.260 --> 33:22.550 We're just yelling at each other inside 33:22.560 --> 33:23.560 the space 33:28.239 --> 33:30.550 when you departed deck 10 . What 33:30.560 --> 33:34.449 happened after that ? All right . So 33:35.390 --> 33:37.270 when I , when I returned to the 33:37.280 --> 33:39.224 bulkhead door to speak with , uh , 33:39.224 --> 33:41.449 Chief Maresa about the conditions 33:41.459 --> 33:44.079 inside , um , I put my boot on the 33:44.089 --> 33:46.311 bulkhead door and the bottom of my boot 33:46.311 --> 33:49.989 started to separate . Um , so the , the 33:50.000 --> 33:52.239 bottom of the , the rubber part of my 33:52.250 --> 33:55.369 boot started to break apart . Uh , so 33:55.380 --> 33:57.609 Battalion Chief Maresa pulled me out of 33:57.619 --> 34:00.109 the bulkhead door . He had me stand 34:00.119 --> 34:02.341 behind him and tell him everything that 34:02.341 --> 34:04.949 was going on in there . Um He kept me 34:04.959 --> 34:07.180 out . I'm going back in because of the 34:07.189 --> 34:09.759 gear failure . I told him what was 34:09.769 --> 34:11.789 going on . And , uh , 34:13.310 --> 34:15.477 basically , at that point , he told me 34:15.477 --> 34:17.532 that he was gonna pull everybody out 34:17.532 --> 34:19.699 because of the conditions . And , um , 34:20.520 --> 34:22.576 he told me to head up to , to , uh , 34:22.576 --> 34:23.576 deck 12 34:26.750 --> 34:28.969 with those boots that were issued to 34:28.979 --> 34:30.757 you or were those boots you had 34:30.757 --> 34:32.979 purchased ? No , they were boots that I 34:32.979 --> 34:32.850 purchased . 34:40.750 --> 34:42.694 All right . And then what happened 34:42.694 --> 34:46.169 after that , uh , after that I ascended 34:46.179 --> 34:49.639 to deck 12 and on my way up , I met , 34:49.649 --> 34:52.149 uh , the two other firefighters that 34:52.159 --> 34:54.270 were my crew , firefighter , Soto and 34:54.270 --> 34:56.326 firefighter Da Silva . And I advised 34:56.326 --> 34:58.520 them to go back down to , uh , 34:58.679 --> 35:02.270 Battalion Chief Maresa to , uh , get 35:02.280 --> 35:04.479 with him . And if he needed them to go 35:04.489 --> 35:06.750 back in to get those guys because of 35:06.760 --> 35:08.927 poor radio communications , they would 35:08.927 --> 35:11.038 be able to fall in line in and , uh , 35:11.038 --> 35:14.800 bring them out . And did they proceed 35:14.810 --> 35:17.030 to do that ? I don't know . 35:19.159 --> 35:22.229 And what , where did you go next ? Uh , 35:22.250 --> 35:24.870 up to deck 12 . Uh , when I got up to 35:24.879 --> 35:28.729 deck 12 . Um , it was , I was having a 35:28.739 --> 35:31.070 hard time standing on the deck . Um , 35:31.300 --> 35:35.149 so I ended up opening up a , uh , uh , 35:35.159 --> 35:37.669 minivan sliding door in a minivan and 35:37.679 --> 35:40.149 climbing into that to sit inside the 35:40.159 --> 35:42.326 minivan and I took some of my gear off 35:43.030 --> 35:45.360 and that was pretty much it . I ended 35:45.370 --> 35:47.481 up speaking with , uh , Italian Chief 35:47.530 --> 35:49.729 Coco about the conditions downstairs . 35:50.110 --> 35:52.360 Uh , let him know and , uh , they were 35:52.370 --> 35:54.939 preparing to , uh , send more members 35:54.949 --> 35:58.790 down at that point . When you , 35:58.800 --> 36:01.133 when you say you were having difficulty , 36:01.133 --> 36:03.356 what do you mean what caused you to get 36:03.356 --> 36:05.411 in the , the minivan , uh , the heat 36:05.411 --> 36:07.189 from the , uh , steel decking ? 36:12.169 --> 36:14.336 Now that you're back on deck 12 , were 36:14.336 --> 36:15.836 you able to hear any radio 36:15.836 --> 36:17.836 transmissions at that point at that 36:17.836 --> 36:20.002 point ? Yes , I was able to hear radio 36:20.002 --> 36:22.169 transmissions going back and forth but 36:22.169 --> 36:24.225 nothing from inside the lower deck . 36:24.659 --> 36:26.459 Did you ever hear any Mayday 36:26.469 --> 36:28.750 transmissions ? I did not personally 36:28.760 --> 36:29.760 know . 36:32.909 --> 36:35.429 And when , as you left , duck tend to 36:35.439 --> 36:39.419 come up to 12 , were you aware of or 36:39.429 --> 36:41.651 what did you believe conditions on deck 36:41.651 --> 36:45.439 11 to be deck 11 ? Name deck 11 or 36:45.449 --> 36:48.719 deck 1211 as you're coming back up ? So 36:48.729 --> 36:52.050 you're leaving deck 10 after we spoke 36:52.060 --> 36:54.290 to , spoke about your boots , you're 36:54.300 --> 36:57.850 coming up to 12 . Were you aware of 11 36:57.860 --> 37:01.250 on your way back up ? Uh Yeah , yeah , 37:01.260 --> 37:03.427 but I mean , not the conditions in the 37:03.427 --> 37:05.538 actual room , but you could tell that 37:05.538 --> 37:07.760 there was something , there was a large 37:07.760 --> 37:09.927 amount of fire up there based on being 37:09.927 --> 37:12.038 in deck 10 where the thermal enginery 37:12.038 --> 37:14.204 cat room , we could see how much white 37:14.204 --> 37:15.538 was on the actual steel 37:25.209 --> 37:28.770 during the fire on July 5th 2023 . Were 37:28.780 --> 37:31.110 there any limited factors that you 37:31.120 --> 37:33.176 think challenged the response to the 37:33.179 --> 37:37.159 fire ? Um 37:39.719 --> 37:41.663 I would say equipment training and 37:41.663 --> 37:45.129 manpower . Can you explain 37:45.810 --> 37:47.977 what you mean by how did the equipment 37:47.979 --> 37:50.389 limit the or challenge you during the 37:50.399 --> 37:53.820 response ? Uh I would think that 37:54.229 --> 37:56.340 like our thermal imaging camera , the 37:56.340 --> 37:58.507 batteries don't last very long in them 37:58.507 --> 38:00.285 anymore . Uh They can't get the 38:00.285 --> 38:02.451 batteries form from my understanding . 38:02.451 --> 38:06.100 Um uh a larger 38:06.110 --> 38:09.439 bottle , air bottle and possibly just 38:09.449 --> 38:11.671 even more bottles being up there at the 38:11.671 --> 38:14.159 time that was , you know , limited 38:14.169 --> 38:17.300 getting the equipment to that area . Um 38:19.929 --> 38:22.350 I don't , I don't know what specialized 38:22.360 --> 38:25.689 equipment would be used in shipboard 38:25.699 --> 38:29.169 firefighting . Um But I'm 38:29.179 --> 38:31.360 sure like everything else including 38:31.370 --> 38:33.909 confined space and um use our 38:33.919 --> 38:36.139 operations and Hazmat , there are 38:36.149 --> 38:38.360 always specially designed pieces of 38:38.370 --> 38:40.889 equipment for each specific type of 38:40.899 --> 38:42.677 hazard that we're coming into . 38:50.570 --> 38:53.770 Then you mentioned training . Um How , 38:53.780 --> 38:57.419 how did that impact the response ? None 38:57.429 --> 38:59.485 of us know what we're getting into . 39:09.169 --> 39:11.280 And then I'm sorry , I tried to write 39:11.280 --> 39:13.002 it fast but the last thing you 39:13.002 --> 39:16.030 mentioned uh manpower , 39:16.459 --> 39:18.459 manpower . OK . Can you explain how 39:18.459 --> 39:21.129 that impacted the response ? Uh That 39:21.139 --> 39:24.510 was a manpower intensive operation like 39:24.629 --> 39:26.100 a high rise fire would be 39:28.610 --> 39:29.610 excuse me . 39:34.969 --> 39:38.530 Um Other operations like 39:38.540 --> 39:41.040 Hazmat . Yeah , 39:45.129 --> 39:47.379 take your time , take your time . 39:56.500 --> 39:58.667 Now , the other operations like Hazmat 39:58.919 --> 40:01.280 and uh confined space , they're all 40:01.290 --> 40:04.139 manpower intensive operations . Um 40:05.580 --> 40:07.802 You can't keep members and equipment in 40:07.802 --> 40:09.840 those areas for very long . Uh They 40:09.850 --> 40:13.560 have to be cyclically rotated . Um So 40:13.570 --> 40:15.514 you have to have a large amount of 40:15.514 --> 40:17.514 manpower , manpower to complete the 40:17.514 --> 40:21.020 operation . And um it just didn't have 40:21.030 --> 40:21.449 love . 40:25.419 --> 40:28.320 Um on the topic of that for Hazmat , is 40:28.330 --> 40:30.439 that something you would practice or 40:30.449 --> 40:34.100 prepare for uh ahead of having to 40:34.110 --> 40:36.800 respond to a Hazmat incident ? Uh Yes . 40:36.810 --> 40:39.459 Also in um in ur circumstances . Yes . 40:46.959 --> 40:50.149 And on a Hazmat response , does the 40:50.159 --> 40:52.159 manpower the like the manning 40:52.169 --> 40:54.469 requirement , does that change or more 40:54.479 --> 40:56.257 people called out to the Hazmat 40:56.257 --> 40:58.090 incident than for instance , the 40:58.090 --> 41:00.201 regular structure fire ? Well , yes , 41:00.201 --> 41:02.459 more people um and the initial response 41:02.469 --> 41:04.590 to a Hazmat will be whatever the uh 41:04.600 --> 41:06.429 signal or signal nine that they 41:06.439 --> 41:08.870 originally sent , which would be either 41:08.879 --> 41:10.879 an engine , a truck and a battalion 41:10.879 --> 41:12.935 chief or two engines , a truck and a 41:12.935 --> 41:15.070 battalion chief . And then the Hazmat 41:15.080 --> 41:17.302 unit would be dispatched and that would 41:17.302 --> 41:19.358 be uh six members of the Hazmat team 41:19.358 --> 41:21.413 would go down there and then once we 41:21.413 --> 41:23.580 assess what's going on there , 41:24.790 --> 41:27.149 we uh we call for more resources . 41:28.919 --> 41:32.669 Ok , Kim Rogers . That's all the 41:32.679 --> 41:34.901 questions I have for you at this time . 41:34.901 --> 41:36.901 I'm going to go around to the other 41:36.901 --> 41:39.068 members of the investigation team . Um 41:39.209 --> 41:41.265 Both the Coast Guard and the N TSB . 41:41.399 --> 41:44.439 Thank you very much . Um Lieutenant , 41:44.850 --> 41:47.072 actually Commander Barger , do you have 41:47.072 --> 41:48.072 any questions ? 41:52.399 --> 41:55.899 I think you 10 commander uh more uh Cap 41:55.909 --> 41:58.580 Rogers . I , I have a couple of follow 41:58.590 --> 42:01.659 up questions . Um I , I took notes as 42:01.669 --> 42:03.613 you were going through your , your 42:03.613 --> 42:05.725 testimony . So I'll , I'll go back to 42:05.725 --> 42:07.669 the beginning uh with my follow up 42:07.669 --> 42:09.836 questions and , and progress through . 42:11.040 --> 42:14.070 Um So you mentioned that you were , I , 42:14.080 --> 42:16.247 I believe you said you were filling in 42:16.247 --> 42:18.469 for another captain uh on Ladder four . 42:18.469 --> 42:20.747 Is that correct ? Yes , that's correct . 42:20.747 --> 42:22.858 Ok . And what when did you start your 42:22.858 --> 42:24.858 shift ? Uh on the fifth with Ladder 42:24.858 --> 42:27.024 four , eight o'clock in the morning is 42:27.024 --> 42:29.250 standard shift time . I got there about 42:29.260 --> 42:32.209 uh somewhere between 6 57 10 . 42:32.919 --> 42:35.939 Ok . And then you mentioned your crew 42:35.949 --> 42:38.500 consisted of Brooks soda and da Silva . 42:38.820 --> 42:40.931 Um Did , did all four of you begin to 42:40.931 --> 42:43.042 shift at the same time ? Yes , that's 42:43.042 --> 42:46.370 correct . Ok . And then 42:46.979 --> 42:49.199 from when you started the shift , um 42:49.209 --> 42:52.320 and prior to your response uh for the , 42:52.330 --> 42:55.570 the ship fire , uh had you run calls 42:55.580 --> 42:59.040 during the day ? Uh Yes , we had other , 42:59.050 --> 43:01.830 other calls during the day at three , 43:01.840 --> 43:04.399 maybe four calls during that day . Ok . 43:07.340 --> 43:10.290 And when you start your shift , what if 43:10.300 --> 43:13.719 any uh equipment accountability is done 43:13.929 --> 43:16.830 uh for you and your crew Ok . So in the 43:16.840 --> 43:19.007 morning , uh , we fill out a journal , 43:19.007 --> 43:21.118 the captains fill out a journal and , 43:21.118 --> 43:23.959 uh , any issues with the equipment is 43:23.969 --> 43:25.747 brought to our attention by the 43:25.747 --> 43:27.913 firefighters themselves . Uh , they go 43:27.913 --> 43:30.080 outside and they check over the rig in 43:30.080 --> 43:32.025 the morning . Um , you know , in a 43:32.025 --> 43:34.191 ladder company , they start the saws , 43:34.191 --> 43:36.358 raise the aerial . Uh , make sure that 43:36.358 --> 43:35.520 all the equipment that we have on a 43:35.530 --> 43:37.530 daily basis is working properly and 43:37.530 --> 43:39.863 fuel properly . If there are any issues , 43:39.863 --> 43:41.863 it's brought to our attention first 43:41.863 --> 43:44.030 thing in the morning and then we write 43:44.030 --> 43:46.030 it down in the , in the journal and 43:46.030 --> 43:48.086 then we call special service to have 43:48.086 --> 43:47.879 that piece of equipment replaced if 43:47.889 --> 43:50.350 they can . Um And if not , it's noted 43:50.360 --> 43:53.479 and the report is send up to the uh uh 43:53.489 --> 43:55.600 to the battalion chief and then sends 43:55.600 --> 43:57.489 it to the deputy chief . And then 43:57.489 --> 43:59.378 inevitably it reaches uh the fire 43:59.378 --> 44:02.760 chief's office and on July 5th , 2023 44:02.790 --> 44:05.012 were there any equipment issues brought 44:05.012 --> 44:07.123 to your attention at the beginning of 44:07.123 --> 44:09.234 the shift ? Uh Not to my knowledge at 44:09.234 --> 44:11.457 the moment , I would have to go back in 44:11.457 --> 44:13.623 the journal and look for that specific 44:13.623 --> 44:15.957 day , but I don't believe there was any . 44:15.957 --> 44:17.957 Uh And then I believe you said each 44:17.957 --> 44:21.050 firefighter is assigned a SCB A . Is 44:21.060 --> 44:23.171 that correct ? Yes , they're assigned 44:23.171 --> 44:25.393 an SCB A . And also I forgot to mention 44:25.393 --> 44:27.560 earlier that they're also in the radio 44:27.560 --> 44:30.429 Ok . And is the SCB a assigned to them 44:30.659 --> 44:34.500 personally or is it based on where they 44:34.510 --> 44:36.566 sit on the rig ? It's based on where 44:36.566 --> 44:40.469 they sit on the rig and then as 44:40.479 --> 44:42.646 far as the radio , is that assigned to 44:42.646 --> 44:44.757 them personally , or is it also where 44:44.757 --> 44:47.179 they sit on the rig ? It depends , 44:47.189 --> 44:49.522 every company is a little bit different . 44:49.522 --> 44:51.411 Uh , some companies have specific 44:51.411 --> 44:53.467 radios . I know some captains , they 44:53.467 --> 44:55.689 assign radios to their members and it's 44:55.689 --> 44:58.280 permanently their radio . And , uh , so 44:58.290 --> 45:00.457 that way they know who they're calling 45:00.457 --> 45:02.679 every time . Uh , some companies also , 45:02.679 --> 45:04.790 uh , assign their radio via the Scbas 45:04.790 --> 45:06.901 and some are just random , they grant 45:06.901 --> 45:09.068 whatever radio they want . Ok . And so 45:09.070 --> 45:12.239 for a ladder four on July 5th , uh , 45:12.250 --> 45:14.790 how , how did you handle the assignment 45:14.800 --> 45:17.239 and accountability for Sebas and , and 45:17.250 --> 45:20.439 radios ? Um , it's different for their 45:20.449 --> 45:22.616 crew . So I just let them do what they 45:22.616 --> 45:24.727 normally do and when I filled out the 45:24.727 --> 45:26.893 paperwork in the morning , uh , in the 45:26.893 --> 45:29.060 journal , everybody signs for the mask 45:29.060 --> 45:31.171 and they write the letter of the mask 45:31.171 --> 45:33.227 and their initial next to it and the 45:33.227 --> 45:36.449 same thing with the , uh , radio and 45:36.459 --> 45:38.737 that , that was done that morning . Uh , 45:39.120 --> 45:41.120 there should be a record indicating 45:41.540 --> 45:44.449 what SCB A and what , what radio was 45:44.459 --> 45:46.626 assigned to each member of your crew . 45:46.649 --> 45:47.927 Yes , that's correct . 45:52.830 --> 45:55.219 And then when you arrive at a fire 45:55.229 --> 45:58.530 scene as the 45:58.729 --> 46:02.340 company captain , uh , is there any 46:02.350 --> 46:04.350 equipment check that you do for the 46:04.350 --> 46:08.300 firefighters on your crew . Uh No , no , 46:08.310 --> 46:10.739 I don't overlook my crew . I generally 46:10.750 --> 46:12.528 trust all my guys to have their 46:12.528 --> 46:14.750 equipment that they would normally take 46:14.750 --> 46:17.679 into a fire . The only time that stops 46:17.689 --> 46:19.633 is if we go up to something and we 46:19.633 --> 46:21.245 realize that we need another 46:21.245 --> 46:23.245 specialized piece of equipment from 46:23.245 --> 46:25.250 inside the rig . Um Say we're doing 46:25.260 --> 46:27.316 some type of force of entry that's a 46:27.316 --> 46:29.538 little different from , from the norm . 46:29.538 --> 46:31.371 We would have to go get those or 46:31.371 --> 46:33.482 extrication tools . If we pull up and 46:33.482 --> 46:35.649 we need to cut somebody out of a car , 46:35.649 --> 46:37.816 we would have to go back and get those 46:37.816 --> 46:37.770 in the rig . Ok . 46:43.199 --> 46:46.889 And as uh for Ladder four was 46:46.899 --> 46:50.270 the port of Newark uh in your first due 46:50.280 --> 46:52.389 area . Uh Yes , it is 46:53.790 --> 46:56.350 for uh I'm not sure if we asked this 46:56.360 --> 46:58.360 previously . What is your normal uh 46:58.360 --> 47:00.449 company ? My normal assignment is 47:00.459 --> 47:03.129 Ladder 11 on the fourth tour . Ok . And 47:03.139 --> 47:05.699 is the port in the fir the first two 47:05.709 --> 47:07.879 area for LA Ladder 11 ? Uh No , it's 47:07.889 --> 47:11.770 not . Um And so you mentioned 47:11.780 --> 47:14.570 previously that some companies will 47:14.580 --> 47:17.179 have equipment on their trucks specific 47:17.189 --> 47:19.133 to different types of responses in 47:19.133 --> 47:21.189 their first due area . Uh Did Ladder 47:21.189 --> 47:23.570 Four have any special equipment on 47:23.580 --> 47:27.260 board ? Um For the Port of Newark being 47:27.270 --> 47:29.381 that it was in their first due area , 47:29.381 --> 47:31.103 not to my knowledge , doctor . 47:35.080 --> 47:38.120 Ok . Then uh moving on to your response 47:38.129 --> 47:39.962 to the actual ship fire . Um You 47:39.962 --> 47:42.330 mentioned that when you got there , uh 47:42.909 --> 47:45.076 Firefighter Brooks would have normally 47:45.076 --> 47:47.076 been with . I can't remember if you 47:47.076 --> 47:49.298 said firefighter soda or da silva , but 47:49.298 --> 47:51.465 in this case , he stayed with you . Um 47:51.465 --> 47:55.399 Can you explain that uh initially when 47:55.409 --> 47:57.631 we , when we first walked up , all four 47:57.631 --> 47:59.576 of us were together , um , when we 47:59.576 --> 48:01.798 split up was when we were up top and it 48:01.798 --> 48:03.742 was just a , a decision because uh 48:03.742 --> 48:06.800 Captain Manning was uh on the first , 48:06.810 --> 48:09.540 the initial attack line . So I didn't 48:09.550 --> 48:11.494 know if there was gonna be another 48:11.494 --> 48:13.717 captain coming down with me um , on the 48:13.717 --> 48:15.772 second attack line , if we were even 48:15.772 --> 48:17.939 gonna need a second attack line . So I 48:17.939 --> 48:19.994 sent those two firefighters and kept 48:19.994 --> 48:22.350 one firefighter with me . It was just 48:22.360 --> 48:24.471 happened to be who's standing next to 48:24.471 --> 48:25.749 me . That's all . Ok . 48:31.750 --> 48:34.879 And when you uh went on board the ship , 48:35.540 --> 48:39.409 um was there any accountability done 48:39.979 --> 48:41.868 for you and your team as , as you 48:41.868 --> 48:43.812 entered the ship initially , as we 48:43.812 --> 48:45.923 entered the ship initially ? Uh Yes , 48:45.923 --> 48:48.090 there was accountability and uh deputy 48:48.090 --> 48:50.312 chief was keeping track and how is that 48:50.312 --> 48:52.146 being done ? I had a little like 48:52.146 --> 48:55.540 clipboard . Ok . Um I 48:55.550 --> 48:57.272 understand that sometimes fire 48:57.272 --> 49:00.169 departments use a tag system . Yes , we 49:00.179 --> 49:02.479 do have a tag system . Ok . And did , 49:02.489 --> 49:04.600 did you , did you all utilize the tag 49:04.600 --> 49:06.822 system on July 5th when you entered the 49:06.822 --> 49:09.229 ship ? Not initially . No , but I think 49:09.239 --> 49:11.570 the , the tags , stay on the rig . And 49:11.580 --> 49:13.709 then the , um , depending on the 49:13.719 --> 49:15.608 assignment . If it's a fire , the 49:15.608 --> 49:17.663 captain generally brings the tags up 49:17.663 --> 49:19.830 with him . But at the time , we were , 49:19.830 --> 49:21.997 we were already told that the fire was 49:21.997 --> 49:24.163 knocked down . So if that happens in , 49:24.163 --> 49:26.840 uh , the fire , you know , becomes fire 49:26.850 --> 49:28.979 again , uh , the deputy chief's aide 49:28.989 --> 49:31.100 would then go into the bridges to get 49:31.100 --> 49:32.600 the accountability types . 49:37.070 --> 49:39.850 And then when you got up to deck 12 , 49:40.270 --> 49:42.810 uh , what did you observe as far as 49:42.820 --> 49:45.139 conditions on that deck ? Uh , looked 49:45.149 --> 49:47.093 like the fire bulk of the fire was 49:47.093 --> 49:49.205 knocked down . Uh , the crew was just 49:49.205 --> 49:51.316 kind of putting everything out and we 49:51.316 --> 49:51.260 were under the impression that we would 49:51.270 --> 49:53.048 be up , we will be up there for 49:53.048 --> 49:55.159 overhaul process helping them open up 49:55.159 --> 49:56.826 the hoods on the vehicles and 49:56.826 --> 49:59.103 extinguish whatever fire was left . Ok . 49:59.103 --> 50:01.270 And did you observe any actual fire on 50:01.270 --> 50:03.492 deck 12 on deck 12 ? No , just , uh , a 50:03.492 --> 50:07.379 majority of smoke on deck 12 . And was 50:07.389 --> 50:10.070 it , uh , smoke or steam ? Like , 50:10.080 --> 50:13.949 please describe the smoke ? I was still 50:13.959 --> 50:16.830 like gray at the time . Um , there were 50:16.840 --> 50:18.729 visible pockets of fire that kept 50:18.729 --> 50:20.840 reappearing , but I was just assuming 50:20.840 --> 50:23.062 that that was stuff that was , uh , you 50:23.062 --> 50:25.118 know , underneath the hood that they 50:25.118 --> 50:24.820 hadn't cut open yet and the fire would 50:24.830 --> 50:27.399 like reach out , you know , things that 50:27.409 --> 50:29.687 we would still have to get to for them . 50:30.659 --> 50:33.199 And at any point did you observe , uh , 50:33.250 --> 50:36.560 the big ramp vehicle ramp door uh over 50:36.570 --> 50:38.737 on the port side of the , the vessel , 50:38.737 --> 50:41.699 not until we crossed the vessel . Uh , 50:41.719 --> 50:43.886 when we were informed that there might 50:43.886 --> 50:45.830 be fire down at the , on the lower 50:45.830 --> 50:47.997 levels . Ok . And at that point , when 50:47.997 --> 50:50.139 you observe the ramp door , uh what 50:50.149 --> 50:52.600 were the conditions , uh , it was open 50:52.610 --> 50:54.777 and there was a light gray haze coming 50:54.777 --> 50:58.750 out of it . And 50:58.760 --> 51:01.040 then if you could , uh , describe your , 51:01.570 --> 51:04.739 your path going from your initial that , 51:04.750 --> 51:08.719 that starboard , uh , stairwell over to 51:08.729 --> 51:10.889 the port side . How did you make your 51:10.899 --> 51:13.639 way around ? Uh , the vehicles on deck 51:13.649 --> 51:17.580 12 ? Ok . So there was no 51:17.590 --> 51:20.370 straight line of vehicles . Um , since 51:20.379 --> 51:22.435 I guess every vehicle is a different 51:22.435 --> 51:24.546 length , they were all kind of hooked 51:24.546 --> 51:26.546 up haphazardly . So we just kind of 51:26.546 --> 51:28.490 followed a path between the cars . 51:28.490 --> 51:27.969 Sometimes you would have to like sit on 51:27.979 --> 51:30.201 the hood and slide across it , but they 51:30.201 --> 51:32.370 were all attached to the , uh , to the 51:32.379 --> 51:34.489 decking by steel chains and we would 51:34.500 --> 51:36.570 just have to step around or step 51:36.580 --> 51:38.802 between cars to get across everything . 51:39.300 --> 51:42.300 Ok . Did , did you observe any type of , 51:42.310 --> 51:45.949 uh , open path around the perimeter 51:46.370 --> 51:48.481 of , of the ship between the cars and 51:48.481 --> 51:50.648 the , the railing on the side ? No , I 51:50.648 --> 51:52.870 didn't see it initially , but there was 51:52.870 --> 51:55.092 one that I noticed later on at , at the 51:55.092 --> 51:57.203 rear of the ship . So I don't know if 51:57.203 --> 51:59.370 it went all the way around , but I did 51:59.370 --> 52:01.370 see a space at the rear of the ship 52:01.370 --> 52:03.592 that was roughly about 2 to 3 ft wide . 52:10.800 --> 52:14.199 Ok . And then when you and your , uh , 52:14.209 --> 52:17.530 and firefighter Brooks made initial 52:17.540 --> 52:20.510 entry into deck 10 . Uh , what was your 52:20.520 --> 52:24.189 tasking ? Uh , tasking was uh 52:24.199 --> 52:26.255 initially to go find out what , what 52:26.255 --> 52:29.270 was left of the fire just to uh , knock 52:29.280 --> 52:31.409 down whatever was left and , and uh , 52:31.419 --> 52:33.308 and report conditions back to the 52:33.308 --> 52:34.919 battalion chief on deck 10 . 52:39.260 --> 52:41.889 And as far as the , uh , typical 52:41.899 --> 52:44.629 assignments for , uh , a ladder company 52:44.639 --> 52:48.169 versus an engine company , um , did it , 52:48.709 --> 52:51.280 is it typical that it would be a ladder 52:51.290 --> 52:55.159 company ? Uh , being the , 52:55.169 --> 52:57.659 the , the single team , uh , making 52:57.669 --> 53:00.000 entry into a space on a hose line . 53:01.229 --> 53:03.229 It's not typical , but , uh , there 53:03.239 --> 53:05.350 really wasn't much we could do , uh , 53:05.350 --> 53:08.199 overhaul wise , uh , with our tools on 53:08.209 --> 53:10.376 the truck at the time , the , the fire 53:10.376 --> 53:13.909 still needed to be contained . So , put 53:13.919 --> 53:16.320 your tools down and use the hose line . 53:16.409 --> 53:18.631 We're all trained to use the hose too . 53:18.631 --> 53:19.510 So , ok . 53:22.479 --> 53:25.020 And then when you , uh , follow the 53:25.030 --> 53:28.729 hose in , uh , to the deck 10 space , 53:30.010 --> 53:33.820 how did you do that ? But was it in 53:33.830 --> 53:36.570 your hand ? Was it at your feet ? It 53:36.580 --> 53:38.636 was , uh , between our legs prowling 53:38.636 --> 53:40.969 and you keep your hands on it while you , 53:40.969 --> 53:44.159 you followed it ? Ok . So you , uh , if 53:44.169 --> 53:46.058 I'm following correctly , you and 53:46.058 --> 53:48.270 firefighter Brooks were basically in a 53:48.280 --> 53:50.391 crawling posture , uh , following the 53:50.391 --> 53:52.391 hose line . Is that correct ? Yes , 53:52.391 --> 53:56.020 that's correct . And then was 53:56.030 --> 53:58.229 the , describe the hose lines , uh , 53:58.239 --> 54:01.169 condition if you would ? Was it charged ? 54:01.790 --> 54:03.901 Yes , it was a charged hose line . It 54:03.901 --> 54:06.179 was , uh , roughly an inch in diameter . 54:07.090 --> 54:09.620 Ok . And was it , uh , as you followed 54:09.629 --> 54:12.080 it , was it straight ? Uh , did it have 54:12.090 --> 54:15.989 any bends or , uh , go around any 54:16.000 --> 54:18.770 obstacles ? Ok . So the hose line 54:18.780 --> 54:20.969 itself was straight but it did curve 54:20.979 --> 54:23.370 out to the middle of the ship . Um , 54:23.570 --> 54:25.403 there were no , no bends from us 54:25.409 --> 54:27.409 following it all the way out and it 54:27.409 --> 54:29.631 wasn't contacting anything , any , uh , 54:29.631 --> 54:32.689 vehicles or , um , steel posts or 54:32.699 --> 54:34.143 anything else like that . 54:41.159 --> 54:43.620 And then if you had to estimate how far 54:43.689 --> 54:47.239 from the door at the 54:47.250 --> 54:50.100 stairwell into the space was , was the 54:50.110 --> 54:52.469 extent of the hose line , I would say 54:52.479 --> 54:56.449 roughly 75 to 100 ft . Ok . I couldn't 54:56.459 --> 54:58.515 be 100% certain because I don't know 54:58.515 --> 55:00.570 how much we pushed in . I don't know 55:00.570 --> 55:02.737 how much was in there initially . Um , 55:02.879 --> 55:05.909 so that's my best as to . 55:06.850 --> 55:09.610 Ok . And then when you and firefighter 55:09.620 --> 55:12.139 Brooks reached , uh , the tip of the 55:12.149 --> 55:15.050 hose line . Yes . Were there any other 55:15.060 --> 55:17.227 fire department personnel in the space 55:17.227 --> 55:19.393 at the time ? Uh , no , they weren't . 55:19.393 --> 55:21.719 Not in front of the snow . And then did 55:21.729 --> 55:25.379 you , did you all advance the hose any 55:25.389 --> 55:28.370 from that position ? We move forward 55:28.379 --> 55:30.601 slightly but we stayed away from all of 55:30.601 --> 55:33.239 the vehicles , um , and just hid 55:33.250 --> 55:34.750 everything from far away . 55:37.780 --> 55:41.750 Ok . And then you mentioned observing 55:41.760 --> 55:44.280 pockets of fire , uh , on deck 10 . 55:44.290 --> 55:47.780 Could you describe those for us ? Um , 55:47.790 --> 55:50.179 they were , I don't know , maybe 55:53.219 --> 55:55.489 small II , I couldn't even really tell 55:55.500 --> 55:58.050 you the size anywhere from six inches 55:58.060 --> 56:00.227 around to maybe 12 inches around . And 56:00.227 --> 56:02.282 they were , they were everywhere and 56:02.282 --> 56:04.393 they were just small little things of 56:04.393 --> 56:06.560 fire and we put them out and then more 56:06.560 --> 56:08.504 would show up . Um , initially , I 56:08.504 --> 56:10.879 didn't , I didn't know what it was . Um , 56:10.889 --> 56:13.840 later after speaking to , uh , other 56:13.850 --> 56:16.959 members that had made entry into the 56:16.969 --> 56:18.969 space , they told me that there was 56:18.969 --> 56:21.136 holes in the ceiling were in the steel 56:21.136 --> 56:23.025 decking from , uh , 11 where they 56:23.025 --> 56:25.939 attach the , uh , uh , the change to 56:25.949 --> 56:29.020 the cars . So I'm assuming those 56:29.030 --> 56:30.863 pockets of fire kept reappearing 56:30.863 --> 56:32.863 because something was dripping down 56:32.863 --> 56:36.620 from 11 to 10 . Ok . And when you say 56:36.629 --> 56:40.129 pockets of fire , uh , was that on the 56:40.139 --> 56:43.919 flat deck , uh , or floor or was that 56:44.090 --> 56:47.639 on or in vehicles , uh , on the flat 56:47.649 --> 56:50.399 deck ? Sometimes on vehicles , mostly 56:50.409 --> 56:53.189 on the flat deck area ? Ok . And did , 56:53.199 --> 56:55.199 did you physically observe anything 56:55.199 --> 56:57.669 falling or dripping down from above ? 56:57.899 --> 56:59.732 No , I didn't see that initially 56:59.732 --> 57:01.732 because my original concern was the 57:01.732 --> 57:04.909 actual , um , uh , the steel itself . 57:04.919 --> 57:07.141 That's more what I was paying attention 57:07.141 --> 57:11.020 to . Ok . And then 57:11.030 --> 57:13.197 when you , when you were crawling in , 57:13.229 --> 57:17.169 uh , on deck 10 along the hose line . 57:17.290 --> 57:19.580 Can you describe the conditions at the 57:19.590 --> 57:22.229 deck level , uh , conditions at the 57:22.239 --> 57:24.350 deck level ? Once you reach a certain 57:24.350 --> 57:26.683 point , you couldn't see anything again . 57:26.683 --> 57:28.850 I don't know if that was because there 57:28.850 --> 57:31.072 was , uh , smoke was a problem or if it 57:31.072 --> 57:33.295 was , uh , just the fact that there was 57:33.295 --> 57:35.628 no lighting in the , in the area at all . 57:35.628 --> 57:38.229 Ok . Uh , but down , down low , I guess , 57:38.239 --> 57:40.520 um , you know , along the floor , uh , 57:40.530 --> 57:43.860 was , was the steel deck hot . Uh , no , 57:43.870 --> 57:46.989 it was not . Uh , was there any water , 57:47.320 --> 57:50.600 uh , you know , any depth of water 57:50.610 --> 57:52.832 actually sitting on the steel deck that 57:52.832 --> 57:54.999 you were crawling through ? Uh , there 57:54.999 --> 57:57.250 probably was from , from the actual , 57:57.260 --> 57:59.090 using the hose line but nothing 57:59.360 --> 58:03.100 accumulated . Ok . Uh , and was , 58:03.169 --> 58:06.260 was the visibility conditions down low 58:06.270 --> 58:08.419 to the deck clearer than if you were 58:08.429 --> 58:10.707 standing up , uh , higher in the space , 58:11.500 --> 58:13.722 couldn't really tell the difference . I 58:13.722 --> 58:15.778 mean , when you were , when you were 58:15.778 --> 58:18.000 lower , if you were further back on the 58:18.000 --> 58:20.278 line , you could see the bulkhead door . 58:20.278 --> 58:22.611 But if you were further towards the tip , 58:22.611 --> 58:24.667 you couldn't see anything . Uh , you 58:24.667 --> 58:24.080 would be able to kneel down and see 58:24.090 --> 58:26.360 like orange and , and what you could 58:26.370 --> 58:28.560 basically make out his cars , but it 58:28.570 --> 58:30.459 really wasn't , you didn't have a 58:30.459 --> 58:32.237 really good distance on how far 58:32.237 --> 58:35.520 everything was . Ok . And then using , 58:35.530 --> 58:37.752 when you were using the thermal imaging 58:37.752 --> 58:40.739 camera in the space , uh , I believe 58:40.750 --> 58:44.209 you mentioned the ceiling in that space . 58:44.219 --> 58:47.199 So the what would be the floor of deck 58:47.209 --> 58:50.080 10 or deck 11 , uh being white hot , 58:50.469 --> 58:52.810 was that the entire deck or was there 58:52.820 --> 58:56.000 areas of it ? Uh , no , it was 11 solid 58:56.010 --> 58:58.121 area of the deck that was white hot . 58:58.121 --> 59:00.320 And at that time , we were , we were 59:00.330 --> 59:03.090 standing at the tip at that time and , 59:03.100 --> 59:06.729 um , it was , it was tenable but 59:06.739 --> 59:08.580 uncomfortable was the way that I 59:08.590 --> 59:10.368 believe I put it in my original 59:10.368 --> 59:12.423 statement and I would still stand by 59:12.423 --> 59:14.534 that . You , you felt the heat coming 59:14.534 --> 59:18.530 off of something . So it was definitely 59:18.540 --> 59:20.540 coming from , from the radiant heat 59:20.540 --> 59:23.389 from the deck above us . OK . And then 59:24.000 --> 59:26.780 with a thermal imaging camera , uh if 59:26.790 --> 59:30.320 you had to estimate how , how far deep 59:30.330 --> 59:33.899 into the space are you able to see uh 59:34.439 --> 59:36.383 you know , like a a heat signature 59:36.383 --> 59:38.550 return on the thermal imaging camera ? 59:38.550 --> 59:40.889 Um I couldn't tell you the actual 59:40.899 --> 59:43.010 distance , but I could see a lot with 59:43.010 --> 59:44.510 the thermal image camera . 59:47.580 --> 59:50.709 Yeah . And then as , as far as uh I 59:50.719 --> 59:52.886 believe you mentioned a pocket of fire 59:52.886 --> 59:55.052 and what at the time you thought was a 59:55.052 --> 59:58.800 forklift . Uh Could you describe what 59:58.810 --> 01:00:01.469 that looked like ? And , and where uh 01:00:01.479 --> 01:00:04.189 within that vehicle it was , it was uh 01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:06.679 towards the rear of the vehicle . Um 01:00:07.120 --> 01:00:08.898 And what made me think it was a 01:00:08.898 --> 01:00:11.120 forklift is on the jeep , they have the 01:00:11.120 --> 01:00:13.009 bars that come down the back so I 01:00:13.009 --> 01:00:14.787 thought that was , you know , a 01:00:14.787 --> 01:00:17.009 forklift area , uh , the , the back end 01:00:17.009 --> 01:00:18.787 of a forklift . So that was the 01:00:18.787 --> 01:00:21.009 majority where the fire was , was right 01:00:21.009 --> 01:00:23.064 there . Ok . And so when you say the 01:00:23.064 --> 01:00:25.231 back of the , the vehicle , it would , 01:00:25.231 --> 01:00:27.176 would that have been , as you were 01:00:27.176 --> 01:00:29.342 coming in on the hose line , the , the 01:00:29.342 --> 01:00:31.564 first part of the vehicle that you came 01:00:31.564 --> 01:00:33.676 across , uh , more facing the side of 01:00:33.676 --> 01:00:35.787 the vehicle like almost on an angle . 01:00:43.330 --> 01:00:47.070 Um , I believe you had described as 01:00:47.080 --> 01:00:51.020 far as , uh , you know , how 01:00:51.030 --> 01:00:53.830 firefighter teams , uh , operate within 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.260 a space . Uh , you had mentioned that 01:00:56.270 --> 01:00:59.169 the typical procedure is two in two out . 01:01:00.050 --> 01:01:02.760 Um , so in this case , uh , you , you 01:01:02.770 --> 01:01:04.659 described having left firefighter 01:01:04.659 --> 01:01:07.090 Brooks at the tip with engine 16 when 01:01:07.100 --> 01:01:09.449 you went to , uh , head over to the 01:01:09.459 --> 01:01:12.870 door . Um , why did , why did you opt 01:01:12.879 --> 01:01:14.823 to leave , uh , firefighter Brooks 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:17.260 there in the space to continue 01:01:17.270 --> 01:01:19.649 suppression efforts ? And honestly , I 01:01:19.659 --> 01:01:21.659 didn't feel like there was anything 01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:23.492 wrong . I thought everything was 01:01:23.492 --> 01:01:25.600 darkening down . It wasn't , wasn't 01:01:25.610 --> 01:01:27.860 going bad . Everything felt fine . So I 01:01:27.870 --> 01:01:31.419 just wanted to report the conditions of 01:01:31.429 --> 01:01:33.262 the steel to the battalion chief 01:01:33.262 --> 01:01:35.373 because I couldn't , uh , communicate 01:01:35.373 --> 01:01:37.485 that from my radio and it's , it's an 01:01:37.485 --> 01:01:39.707 important collapse hazard . So I wanted 01:01:39.707 --> 01:01:42.419 to make sure that that was relayed and 01:01:42.429 --> 01:01:45.409 then you mentioned that you had an 01:01:45.419 --> 01:01:47.419 issue with your boots . Uh , if you 01:01:47.419 --> 01:01:49.530 hadn't had that issue , what was your 01:01:49.530 --> 01:01:52.449 intent uh , after to the cap or to the 01:01:52.479 --> 01:01:55.189 battalion chief , follow the line back 01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:57.429 and , uh , go meet up with the crew . 01:01:57.620 --> 01:02:00.530 So it would be either to continue 01:02:00.540 --> 01:02:02.899 operations or go back and pull them out 01:02:02.909 --> 01:02:04.949 myself , depending on whatever the 01:02:04.959 --> 01:02:07.015 battalion she's told me to do . Ok . 01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:11.250 And then prior to exiting the space , 01:02:11.260 --> 01:02:13.260 uh , did you have any communication 01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:16.280 with the members of Engine 16 ? Uh , 01:02:16.290 --> 01:02:18.457 that , that had followed you in , uh , 01:02:18.457 --> 01:02:20.679 just yelling back and forth to him ? No 01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:24.250 real communication . A slap on a slap 01:02:24.260 --> 01:02:26.371 on the shoulder . That was about it . 01:02:26.371 --> 01:02:28.699 Ok . And did , did you know who the , 01:02:28.709 --> 01:02:30.931 uh , company officer was in from engine 01:02:30.931 --> 01:02:33.265 16 ? Not from the roster in the morning . 01:02:33.265 --> 01:02:35.153 I knew that it was , uh , Captain 01:02:35.153 --> 01:02:37.610 Rebetta . Ok . And as captain to 01:02:37.620 --> 01:02:40.139 captain within the space , uh , did you 01:02:40.149 --> 01:02:42.205 have any kind of communication about 01:02:42.205 --> 01:02:45.260 what your intent was for , for heading 01:02:45.270 --> 01:02:47.469 over to the door ? Uh , no , because I 01:02:47.479 --> 01:02:49.590 had already backed the line up with , 01:02:49.590 --> 01:02:51.757 uh , with firefighter Brooks , um , to 01:02:51.757 --> 01:02:53.757 an area that I believed was safe if 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:55.593 there was a potential collapse . 01:03:00.280 --> 01:03:02.280 And then when you follow the hose , 01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:04.502 excuse me , the hose line out . How did 01:03:04.502 --> 01:03:06.391 you do that ? Were you , were you 01:03:06.391 --> 01:03:08.502 crawling again ? Uh , initially I was 01:03:08.502 --> 01:03:10.669 crawling and then at a certain point I 01:03:10.669 --> 01:03:12.558 did stand up , uh , when I got in 01:03:12.558 --> 01:03:14.558 because I was able to see the light 01:03:14.558 --> 01:03:16.613 from the bulkhead door . All right . 01:03:17.100 --> 01:03:20.989 Did you have Um , did you have contact 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.222 with the hose line the entire way out ? 01:03:23.500 --> 01:03:26.989 Yes , I did . And could you describe 01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.111 the condition of the hose line as you 01:03:29.111 --> 01:03:31.333 followed it out ? I was straight . Uh , 01:03:31.333 --> 01:03:33.229 like I said , the , the same band 01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:35.517 initially that we went in was the same , 01:03:35.517 --> 01:03:37.899 same band that we followed out . Ok . 01:03:37.909 --> 01:03:40.419 So it was a slight curve to the line 01:03:40.429 --> 01:03:42.889 going from , from the edge of the wall , 01:03:42.899 --> 01:03:45.066 uh , that we followed in initially out 01:03:45.066 --> 01:03:47.177 to the middle of the ship . Ok . So , 01:03:47.177 --> 01:03:49.659 no , no , uh , bends around 01:03:49.669 --> 01:03:51.780 obstructions , uh , as you went out . 01:03:52.570 --> 01:03:56.199 No , not at all . Ok . Uh , no , no , 01:03:56.209 --> 01:03:59.000 uh , kinks or , um , 01:04:00.290 --> 01:04:03.110 or other , you know , bends of the hose 01:04:03.120 --> 01:04:05.231 line over itself . Uh , anything like 01:04:05.231 --> 01:04:09.080 that ? No , not at all to 01:04:09.090 --> 01:04:11.201 your knowledge . Was it the only hose 01:04:11.201 --> 01:04:13.770 line that was in the space to my 01:04:13.780 --> 01:04:16.350 knowledge ? Yes , though I did and I , 01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:18.669 it was unconfirmed because I wasn't 01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:20.679 sure what it was , uh , through the 01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:22.790 thermal imaging camera off to my left 01:04:22.790 --> 01:04:25.149 and , uh , it was separated from us 01:04:25.159 --> 01:04:27.492 pretty far . It , what appeared to be a , 01:04:27.492 --> 01:04:29.326 a cool line on the floor , but I 01:04:29.326 --> 01:04:31.603 couldn't tell if it was another actual , 01:04:31.603 --> 01:04:33.770 uh , fire hose that had entered from a 01:04:33.770 --> 01:04:35.603 different section or it was just 01:04:35.603 --> 01:04:37.770 something else in the ship . Maybe a , 01:04:37.770 --> 01:04:39.826 a straight pipe cooling line or , or 01:04:39.826 --> 01:04:41.992 something else on the floor . I had no 01:04:41.992 --> 01:04:44.103 idea . Ok . And how far away was that 01:04:44.103 --> 01:04:46.679 from , uh , I'd say probably 20 to 25 01:04:46.689 --> 01:04:48.467 ft away from where we were at . 01:04:50.530 --> 01:04:54.300 And then when you observed the 01:04:54.310 --> 01:04:56.532 floor of deck 10 in the thermal thermal 01:04:56.532 --> 01:04:59.280 imaging camera generally , uh , 01:05:00.310 --> 01:05:02.532 what was the heat signature of , of the 01:05:02.532 --> 01:05:04.870 floor ? Deck 10 , the floor of deck 10 01:05:04.879 --> 01:05:06.350 was cool . Ok . 01:05:10.300 --> 01:05:12.959 Uh , so you mentioned when you got over 01:05:12.969 --> 01:05:15.919 and reported to Battalion Chief Maresca , 01:05:16.669 --> 01:05:18.613 that's when you experienced , uh , 01:05:18.613 --> 01:05:20.780 issues with your boots . Can , can you 01:05:20.780 --> 01:05:23.610 describe what that issue was and why 01:05:23.620 --> 01:05:26.560 you think it might have occurred ? Um , 01:05:26.909 --> 01:05:29.131 I've been going back and forth with the 01:05:29.131 --> 01:05:31.465 investigator out in Texas that has , uh , 01:05:31.465 --> 01:05:33.465 the boots . Uh , they were sent out 01:05:33.465 --> 01:05:36.100 there by NASH . Um , the initial 01:05:36.110 --> 01:05:38.500 thought process is that the cement that 01:05:38.510 --> 01:05:40.677 glues the bottom of the boot on , uh , 01:05:40.677 --> 01:05:44.219 failed , um , due to , uh , the heated 01:05:44.229 --> 01:05:47.040 water up on deck 12 . So 01:05:48.699 --> 01:05:50.860 initially , I think what , what we 01:05:50.870 --> 01:05:54.479 think happened was that since I was 01:05:54.489 --> 01:05:56.656 standing in the water on deck 12 prior 01:05:56.656 --> 01:05:59.340 to making entry on the set as the 01:05:59.350 --> 01:06:01.739 second attack line , um , the boots 01:06:01.750 --> 01:06:03.972 began to fail up there at that point in 01:06:03.972 --> 01:06:06.139 time from being in the hot water . And 01:06:06.139 --> 01:06:08.028 then when I got downstairs , they 01:06:08.028 --> 01:06:10.340 separated because initially , I felt 01:06:10.350 --> 01:06:12.659 like I was slipping , but I thought it 01:06:12.669 --> 01:06:16.379 was like an oil from the cars , you 01:06:16.389 --> 01:06:18.556 know , it would be on the decking . So 01:06:18.556 --> 01:06:20.556 I didn't really pay attention to it 01:06:20.556 --> 01:06:22.722 while I was on deck 10 . And then when 01:06:22.722 --> 01:06:24.833 I got over to the bulkhead door and I 01:06:24.833 --> 01:06:26.945 put my , my boot on the bulkhead door 01:06:26.945 --> 01:06:29.111 when I went to talk to the chief , the 01:06:29.111 --> 01:06:31.222 sides , like it basically curved over 01:06:31.222 --> 01:06:33.222 and then the side opened up roughly 01:06:33.222 --> 01:06:35.167 around where the ball of your foot 01:06:35.167 --> 01:06:37.360 would be . Um , and that's when we 01:06:37.370 --> 01:06:40.310 realized that the boots had failed . Ok . 01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:42.300 So you , you ST , uh , if I'm 01:06:42.310 --> 01:06:44.421 understanding correctly , you stepped 01:06:44.421 --> 01:06:46.929 on , I'll call it the knife edge , um , 01:06:46.939 --> 01:06:50.770 of , of the door . Yes . 01:06:52.659 --> 01:06:55.429 Ok . So then can you describe describe 01:06:55.439 --> 01:06:58.820 that water standing on deck 12 for us ? 01:06:59.570 --> 01:07:02.030 Uh , there was like there was steam 01:07:02.040 --> 01:07:04.151 coming off of the , of the water . So 01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:06.381 it was hot and it was hot enough to the 01:07:06.381 --> 01:07:08.326 point where I couldn't stand on it 01:07:08.326 --> 01:07:10.548 anymore . So I'm assuming , well , what 01:07:10.548 --> 01:07:12.770 we were discussing , uh , was that when 01:07:12.770 --> 01:07:14.937 I finally got back up to deck 12 , the 01:07:14.937 --> 01:07:17.159 boots just deaminate completely and , 01:07:17.169 --> 01:07:19.336 uh , the bottoms came off of them back 01:07:19.336 --> 01:07:22.040 when I got after I was pulled out . Ok . 01:07:22.050 --> 01:07:25.709 So prior to your first , uh , entry 01:07:25.719 --> 01:07:28.739 down into that , that , uh , port a 01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:32.709 stairwell was there standing water 01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:35.689 on all of deck 12 or were there pockets 01:07:35.699 --> 01:07:37.866 of standing water ? There was standing 01:07:37.866 --> 01:07:39.977 water , uh , in the area that we were 01:07:39.977 --> 01:07:42.143 working in , it was roughly ankle deep 01:07:42.143 --> 01:07:44.320 at the time . Um , and then when I got 01:07:44.330 --> 01:07:46.441 back up to the top deck , it was much 01:07:46.441 --> 01:07:49.600 higher . It's probably , uh , probably 01:07:49.610 --> 01:07:51.499 another three inches above that . 01:07:59.229 --> 01:08:01.360 And then as you , uh , 01:08:03.500 --> 01:08:05.389 at least one going down and one's 01:08:05.389 --> 01:08:07.278 coming up , uh , in that port , a 01:08:07.278 --> 01:08:09.278 stairwell , uh , when you passed by 01:08:09.278 --> 01:08:13.189 deck 11 , what was the condition of 01:08:13.199 --> 01:08:15.419 the door , uh , that , that led into 01:08:15.540 --> 01:08:18.370 dec 11 ? Uh , the door was closed . Ok . 01:08:18.379 --> 01:08:20.189 Both times . Yes . 01:08:23.220 --> 01:08:25.319 Ok . And then , um , I believe you 01:08:25.330 --> 01:08:27.497 mentioned when you got back up to deck 01:08:27.497 --> 01:08:30.279 12 , uh , you took off some gear , uh , 01:08:30.290 --> 01:08:33.410 and you went inside of a minivan . Um 01:08:33.419 --> 01:08:35.641 What did you do then do at that point , 01:08:36.740 --> 01:08:40.290 uh , basically worked with whatever 01:08:40.299 --> 01:08:42.490 firefighters I could just trying to 01:08:42.500 --> 01:08:44.611 keep an eye on radio communications . 01:08:44.611 --> 01:08:47.799 That was it . Um , when the , after the 01:08:47.810 --> 01:08:49.532 event , when the fast team was 01:08:49.532 --> 01:08:51.754 activated , I spoke with , uh , Captain 01:08:51.754 --> 01:08:53.921 Baiano about switching over to channel 01:08:53.921 --> 01:08:57.410 five . and I ended up not working , uh , 01:08:57.419 --> 01:08:59.600 just trying to give that a shot . Uh , 01:08:59.700 --> 01:09:02.229 other than that , it was just trying to 01:09:02.240 --> 01:09:04.430 help out , uh , where I could , but I 01:09:04.439 --> 01:09:07.790 really couldn't do much . Ok . And then 01:09:07.799 --> 01:09:09.743 at , at what point if ever did you 01:09:09.743 --> 01:09:11.966 become aware of the Maydays ? And how , 01:09:12.669 --> 01:09:15.689 uh , once I saw Captain Renno , uh 01:09:15.700 --> 01:09:17.700 that's when I was realized that the 01:09:17.700 --> 01:09:18.922 Mayday had occurred . 01:09:23.410 --> 01:09:25.632 And did you hear that over the radio or 01:09:25.632 --> 01:09:27.799 directly from him ? No , I saw , I saw 01:09:27.799 --> 01:09:29.966 him directly when he came out . Um , I 01:09:29.966 --> 01:09:32.077 know the Maydays had happened , but I 01:09:32.077 --> 01:09:34.132 didn't specifically hear them on the 01:09:34.132 --> 01:09:36.299 radio at the time . Ok . And did , did 01:09:36.299 --> 01:09:38.132 you participate in the search uh 01:09:38.132 --> 01:09:40.132 efforts at all ? No , I did not . I 01:09:40.132 --> 01:09:43.039 couldn't because of the gear . Um And 01:09:43.048 --> 01:09:45.215 then what at what point did you depart 01:09:45.215 --> 01:09:48.080 the ship ? Uh After 01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:53.009 about 20 minutes after uh they brought 01:09:53.020 --> 01:09:56.680 firefighter Aku up from deck 01:09:56.689 --> 01:10:00.330 10 ? Ok . Uh And then my last 01:10:00.339 --> 01:10:02.899 question as far as uh 01:10:03.930 --> 01:10:07.879 usage of your uh SCB A and 01:10:07.959 --> 01:10:09.903 what you observed with firefighter 01:10:09.903 --> 01:10:12.899 Brooks uh from the time that you 01:10:12.910 --> 01:10:16.720 entered the ship , when did 01:10:16.729 --> 01:10:19.160 you utilize , uh when did you go on air ? 01:10:20.049 --> 01:10:22.105 When did I actually physically go on 01:10:22.105 --> 01:10:24.327 air and keep my mask on the entire time 01:10:24.327 --> 01:10:26.438 was once we got down to deck 10 right 01:10:26.438 --> 01:10:28.438 before we made entry in through the 01:10:28.438 --> 01:10:30.493 portal door ? Ok . And was that your 01:10:30.493 --> 01:10:32.549 observation of , of what firefighter 01:10:32.549 --> 01:10:34.493 Brooks did as well ? Yes . Ok . So 01:10:34.493 --> 01:10:37.470 going up the initial stairwell , uh did , 01:10:37.479 --> 01:10:39.839 did you utilize go on air to end point ? 01:10:40.339 --> 01:10:43.350 Um When we were going up , both of us 01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:47.129 did , um turn our masks on and 01:10:47.140 --> 01:10:49.439 uh breathe through the mask every once 01:10:49.450 --> 01:10:51.729 in a blue moon . It wasn't , it wasn't 01:10:51.740 --> 01:10:53.851 constantly on us , but it was because 01:10:53.851 --> 01:10:55.907 the air was like very , very hot and 01:10:55.907 --> 01:10:58.549 hard to breathe in that stairwell . Ok . 01:10:59.479 --> 01:11:01.423 All right . Uh Thank you , Captain 01:11:01.423 --> 01:11:05.140 Rogers . Um Before we go on to the 01:11:05.149 --> 01:11:07.205 rest of the , uh follow up questions 01:11:07.205 --> 01:11:09.260 from the investigative team , uh and 01:11:09.260 --> 01:11:11.350 then cross examination questions uh 01:11:11.359 --> 01:11:13.359 from the parties in interest I know 01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:15.581 we've been going for about an hour . Uh 01:11:15.581 --> 01:11:17.950 So we , we will take a 10 minute recess . 01:11:19.180 --> 01:11:21.890 Um So the time is now 01:11:22.299 --> 01:11:26.049 10:22 a.m. We will reconvene at 01:11:26.060 --> 01:11:29.040 10:32 a.m. Thank you . 01:11:32.020 --> 01:11:34.187 Ok , good morning . Uh The time is now 01:11:34.187 --> 01:11:36.720 10:32 a.m. Eastern Standard Time . Uh 01:11:36.729 --> 01:11:38.870 And the hearing is now reconvened and 01:11:38.879 --> 01:11:40.990 back on the record regarding the fire 01:11:40.990 --> 01:11:43.459 on board Grande Casa de Borio . Uh This 01:11:43.470 --> 01:11:45.620 is a continuation of Captain Rogers 01:11:45.629 --> 01:11:48.080 testimony . Uh Captain Rogers as a 01:11:48.089 --> 01:11:50.311 reminder , uh you're still under oath , 01:11:52.040 --> 01:11:53.040 understood . 01:11:56.500 --> 01:11:59.359 So Captain , I have just a , a couple 01:11:59.370 --> 01:12:01.560 of more uh follow up questions for you 01:12:01.569 --> 01:12:03.680 uh before we turn it over to the rest 01:12:03.680 --> 01:12:05.847 of the investigation team uh for their 01:12:05.847 --> 01:12:07.736 follow up questions . Uh So I had 01:12:07.736 --> 01:12:10.629 started to ask you about previous calls 01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:13.140 that you ran with Ladder four on July 01:12:13.149 --> 01:12:16.930 5th , 2023 um 01:12:17.089 --> 01:12:20.680 on those calls prior to the ship 01:12:20.689 --> 01:12:24.220 fire . Uh Do you remember hearing 01:12:24.229 --> 01:12:26.520 firefighter Brooks ever use his radio ? 01:12:28.089 --> 01:12:31.209 Uh Not off the top of my head . There 01:12:31.220 --> 01:12:33.331 is a call in my head but I'm not sure 01:12:33.331 --> 01:12:35.387 if it was the same day , um Or if it 01:12:35.387 --> 01:12:37.609 was a different time that I worked with 01:12:37.609 --> 01:12:39.664 that crew . Um So I would have to go 01:12:39.664 --> 01:12:41.664 back in the journal to actually see 01:12:41.664 --> 01:12:43.776 what the runs were to confirm or deny 01:12:43.776 --> 01:12:47.479 that . Ok . And then how , 01:12:47.490 --> 01:12:49.720 how frequently do the , the 01:12:49.729 --> 01:12:52.879 firefighters uh use the radio , 01:12:53.569 --> 01:12:55.125 like actual , actually make 01:12:55.125 --> 01:12:57.291 transmissions on the radio versus what 01:12:57.291 --> 01:12:59.458 the captain or the company also does . 01:12:59.479 --> 01:13:01.779 I would say it's fairly frequent since 01:13:01.790 --> 01:13:03.901 the introduction of the radios to all 01:13:03.901 --> 01:13:05.901 of the , uh , firemen . Uh , when I 01:13:05.901 --> 01:13:08.589 first got on the job , only the captain 01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:12.500 had a radio and , uh , there was 01:13:12.509 --> 01:13:14.787 very little radio traffic at that time . 01:13:14.787 --> 01:13:17.680 Uh , as time went on and they , they 01:13:17.689 --> 01:13:19.856 purchased the radios for everybody for 01:13:19.856 --> 01:13:22.078 safety reasons . Um , you start to hear 01:13:22.078 --> 01:13:24.299 more radio chatter from various guys 01:13:24.310 --> 01:13:26.532 discussing what they're doing and , and 01:13:26.532 --> 01:13:29.700 what conditions they come across . Uh 01:13:29.709 --> 01:13:31.765 So would you say it's , it's typical 01:13:31.765 --> 01:13:35.439 then on a routine , routine call for a 01:13:35.450 --> 01:13:37.450 fire that , that you would hear the 01:13:37.910 --> 01:13:39.966 majority of the firefighters at some 01:13:39.966 --> 01:13:42.299 point , uh , communicate over the radio . 01:13:42.459 --> 01:13:44.660 I wouldn't say all some guys , yes , 01:13:44.669 --> 01:13:46.725 some guys . No , I think that's more 01:13:46.725 --> 01:13:49.009 along guys liking to talk on the radio . 01:13:49.020 --> 01:13:51.859 Sometimes it's just a fireman thing . 01:13:52.120 --> 01:13:54.990 Um , I always tried to stay off the 01:13:55.000 --> 01:13:57.629 radio as much as possible unless it was 01:13:57.640 --> 01:13:59.850 important . And I always preferred 01:13:59.859 --> 01:14:01.581 relaying face to face with the 01:14:01.581 --> 01:14:03.959 battalion chief . Um , even in , you 01:14:03.970 --> 01:14:06.081 know , structure fires and stuff like 01:14:06.081 --> 01:14:08.248 that anyway , that sometimes you , you 01:14:08.248 --> 01:14:10.470 key the radio and there's so much going 01:14:10.470 --> 01:14:12.803 on that your message never gets through . 01:14:13.270 --> 01:14:16.950 Ok . And 01:14:16.959 --> 01:14:20.029 then with your radio traffic or your 01:14:20.040 --> 01:14:22.262 attempts to use the radio when you were 01:14:22.262 --> 01:14:24.318 in deck 10 to communicate conditions 01:14:24.318 --> 01:14:27.509 back to , to Ch Maresa , I believe you 01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:29.950 mentioned , you heard a tone on the 01:14:29.959 --> 01:14:32.490 radio and 01:14:34.149 --> 01:14:36.260 what , what did you believe that tone 01:14:36.260 --> 01:14:39.140 indicated ? Uh I've heard the tone 01:14:39.149 --> 01:14:41.950 several times in , in , uh in various 01:14:41.959 --> 01:14:44.509 conditions , uh high rises , uh 01:14:44.520 --> 01:14:47.979 basements of buildings . Um 01:14:48.459 --> 01:14:50.640 Sometimes just when two people are 01:14:50.649 --> 01:14:52.927 trying to communicate at the same time , 01:14:52.927 --> 01:14:55.089 it makes the same noise . So it could 01:14:55.100 --> 01:14:57.529 have been multiple factors that , that 01:14:57.540 --> 01:14:59.799 caused that . But uh my initial 01:14:59.810 --> 01:15:01.977 impression would have been that it was 01:15:01.977 --> 01:15:03.977 to steal from the ship , uh , being 01:15:03.977 --> 01:15:06.143 similar to being in a basement or in a 01:15:06.143 --> 01:15:08.390 high rise where communications are , 01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:10.819 are very hard in those buildings . Ok . 01:15:10.839 --> 01:15:13.061 So you would hear the same tone on your 01:15:13.061 --> 01:15:15.339 radio , whether it was the inability 01:15:15.350 --> 01:15:17.406 for it to connect to , let's say the 01:15:17.406 --> 01:15:19.406 repeater to , to transmit or if you 01:15:19.406 --> 01:15:21.540 were being stepped on by , uh , 01:15:21.549 --> 01:15:23.720 dispatch or , uh , another radio 01:15:23.729 --> 01:15:25.896 communication . Yes , that's correct . 01:15:26.089 --> 01:15:29.790 Ok . Um , and then just a couple of 01:15:29.799 --> 01:15:32.149 points for clarification . Uh , so 01:15:32.160 --> 01:15:34.700 we've heard in some previous testimony 01:15:34.709 --> 01:15:37.350 during his proceedings , uh , that when 01:15:37.609 --> 01:15:40.629 Engine 16 entered the space , uh , and 01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:42.862 followed the hose line , uh , they only 01:15:42.862 --> 01:15:44.973 encountered firefighter Brooks , um , 01:15:45.060 --> 01:15:47.171 in the space at the tip of the line . 01:15:47.171 --> 01:15:49.319 Uh , why , why would that be , or why 01:15:49.330 --> 01:15:51.830 may we have heard that ? I can't answer 01:15:51.839 --> 01:15:54.850 that for you . Ok . So you based on 01:15:54.859 --> 01:15:57.419 your recollection of , of how things 01:15:57.950 --> 01:16:00.540 occurred that day , you , you for sure , 01:16:00.549 --> 01:16:03.169 made contact with Engine 16 team when 01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:05.209 they came into the space . Yes . 01:16:07.100 --> 01:16:09.156 Uh , and then we had also heard some 01:16:09.156 --> 01:16:11.322 previous testimony , uh , that you may 01:16:11.322 --> 01:16:13.489 have sustained an injury , uh , that , 01:16:13.489 --> 01:16:15.822 that caused you to leave . Deck 10 . Um , 01:16:15.822 --> 01:16:18.509 did , did you sustain an injury at all ? 01:16:19.040 --> 01:16:21.700 Uh No , outside of later on . Uh , I 01:16:21.709 --> 01:16:25.160 was transported uh by A MS to uh Saint 01:16:25.169 --> 01:16:27.502 Barnaby's Hospital for burns to my feet . 01:16:27.899 --> 01:16:31.140 Ok . Um , but no , no , uh , injury to 01:16:31.149 --> 01:16:33.439 your ankle or anything like that . No , 01:16:33.450 --> 01:16:35.617 the ankle injury I believe was Captain 01:16:35.617 --> 01:16:38.439 rebuttal . Ok . All right . All right . 01:16:38.450 --> 01:16:40.617 Thank you , Captain . Um , that is all 01:16:40.617 --> 01:16:42.839 the follow up questions I have . I'll , 01:16:42.839 --> 01:16:42.200 I'll turn it back over to Lieutenant 01:16:42.209 --> 01:16:43.209 Commander Moore . 01:16:46.049 --> 01:16:48.382 Thank you , Commander , Lieutenant Reid . 01:16:48.382 --> 01:16:49.938 Do you have any questions ? 01:16:52.540 --> 01:16:54.990 Yes , thank you . Um , Captain Roberto , 01:16:55.000 --> 01:16:56.889 I just have a couple of follow up 01:16:56.889 --> 01:16:59.100 questions , Captain Rogers . Um I'm 01:16:59.109 --> 01:17:03.029 sorry , Captain Rogers . Excuse me on 01:17:03.040 --> 01:17:06.790 deck 12 . Um , during your time up 01:17:06.799 --> 01:17:09.100 there . Did you notice any like still 01:17:09.109 --> 01:17:12.890 deformation happening on actual deck 12 01:17:12.899 --> 01:17:15.290 itself ? Yes . No . And we wouldn't 01:17:15.299 --> 01:17:17.521 have been able to see it anyway because 01:17:17.521 --> 01:17:19.632 all the vehicles that were stacked on 01:17:19.632 --> 01:17:21.743 12 . Ok . Uh That's all I had . Thank 01:17:21.743 --> 01:17:25.390 you very much , Mister Pitman . Do you 01:17:25.399 --> 01:17:29.270 have any questions ? I have no 01:17:29.279 --> 01:17:33.250 questions for the witness , the 01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:34.600 Man Award . 01:17:38.770 --> 01:17:40.881 I have no follow up questions . Thank 01:17:40.881 --> 01:17:40.870 you for your time . 01:17:44.479 --> 01:17:46.729 Moving to the N TSB Mister Barnum . Do 01:17:46.740 --> 01:17:48.129 you have any questions ? 01:17:51.089 --> 01:17:53.089 Yes . Thank you . Thank you Captain 01:17:53.089 --> 01:17:55.311 Rogers ? Uh , just couple clarification 01:17:55.311 --> 01:17:59.279 questions here . Um , at 01:17:59.299 --> 01:18:02.470 any point . Did you , um , look into 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:05.390 deck 11 at any point that I look into 01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:08.100 deck 11 ? Yes , sir . Um , yes . 01:18:09.109 --> 01:18:11.500 When was that ? It , was it multiple 01:18:11.509 --> 01:18:13.620 times or just once ? No , it was just 01:18:13.620 --> 01:18:15.787 one time . I couldn't tell you when it 01:18:15.787 --> 01:18:18.009 was and it was just a slight door crack 01:18:18.009 --> 01:18:20.065 to see the smoke wasn't any , yeah , 01:18:20.065 --> 01:18:22.342 there was smoke coming out of the door . 01:18:22.342 --> 01:18:24.453 The smoke . Did you see any flames or 01:18:24.453 --> 01:18:26.620 fire in there ? No , I didn't open the 01:18:26.620 --> 01:18:28.842 door enough to see that . And you don't 01:18:28.842 --> 01:18:30.898 know when it was , was it before you 01:18:30.898 --> 01:18:33.065 made entry to 10 or after you recall . 01:18:34.709 --> 01:18:36.876 Not sure of the timeline on that . I'm 01:18:36.876 --> 01:18:40.669 sorry . Uh And the only other kind of 01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:42.680 line I had here is , uh , regarding 01:18:42.680 --> 01:18:44.791 your boots and I know you're , you're 01:18:44.791 --> 01:18:46.513 working with Nash uh on this . 01:18:46.513 --> 01:18:48.347 Appreciate it . But just for the 01:18:48.347 --> 01:18:50.569 benefit , everybody here just had a few 01:18:50.569 --> 01:18:53.149 questions regarding those . Um , does 01:18:53.160 --> 01:18:55.310 Newark Fire Department supply firemen 01:18:55.319 --> 01:18:58.430 with boots ? Yes , they do . Ok . So 01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:00.970 why did you purchase your own ? I 01:19:00.979 --> 01:19:03.201 purchased my own because the boots that 01:19:03.201 --> 01:19:05.257 were supplied with are uncomfortable 01:19:05.257 --> 01:19:07.257 for truck work . And I've been in a 01:19:07.257 --> 01:19:09.257 ladder company for a majority of my 01:19:09.257 --> 01:19:11.257 career . Uh , the rubber boots they 01:19:11.257 --> 01:19:13.257 supply are very stiff . Uh , so the 01:19:13.257 --> 01:19:15.257 leather boots give you a little bit 01:19:15.257 --> 01:19:17.479 more uh , mobility and ease when you're 01:19:17.479 --> 01:19:19.950 climbing the ladders Ok . Do , do many 01:19:19.959 --> 01:19:21.737 of your peers also purchase the 01:19:21.737 --> 01:19:24.709 personal boots or ? Yeah , I would say 01:19:24.720 --> 01:19:27.200 probably a large amount of guys do 01:19:27.209 --> 01:19:30.040 purchase their own boots . And , and 01:19:30.049 --> 01:19:32.216 where are you getting the boots from ? 01:19:32.799 --> 01:19:36.589 Um , like , uh , fire store ? 01:19:36.600 --> 01:19:39.580 Uh , there's also , um , turn out in 01:19:39.589 --> 01:19:41.700 Jersey City . I don't know if they're 01:19:41.700 --> 01:19:43.645 still there anymore , but that was 01:19:43.645 --> 01:19:43.580 another place that you could purchase 01:19:43.589 --> 01:19:45.700 the boots . There's , there's various 01:19:45.700 --> 01:19:47.645 stores throughout the state of New 01:19:47.645 --> 01:19:49.311 Jersey . Um , I just recently 01:19:49.311 --> 01:19:51.478 repurchased a new set of boots since I 01:19:51.478 --> 01:19:53.311 had to replace those from , uh , 01:19:53.311 --> 01:19:56.350 firefighter one in , uh , Newton . Ok . 01:19:56.359 --> 01:19:58.470 And the , the boots that failed , how 01:19:58.470 --> 01:20:00.581 long have you had them ? And , and do 01:20:00.581 --> 01:20:02.803 you remember where you get those , uh , 01:20:02.803 --> 01:20:05.459 55 to 6 years ? Uh , one of the guys 01:20:05.470 --> 01:20:09.020 that I work with , uh , he ended up 01:20:09.029 --> 01:20:10.862 getting a set of boots for , for 01:20:10.862 --> 01:20:13.085 everybody in the crew . And then , uh , 01:20:13.085 --> 01:20:15.259 so we all had all had leathers . 01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:19.419 Ok . And , you know , in your 01:20:19.430 --> 01:20:22.299 experience , is that a typical 01:20:23.430 --> 01:20:25.819 five years , is that a typical length 01:20:25.830 --> 01:20:28.052 of time that you expect a pair of boots 01:20:28.052 --> 01:20:30.219 to be good for , or do you expect them 01:20:30.219 --> 01:20:32.386 to last longer or , or not as long ? I 01:20:32.386 --> 01:20:34.608 would say 5 to 6 years is usually , you 01:20:34.608 --> 01:20:36.719 know , you're getting in that area as 01:20:36.719 --> 01:20:38.774 long as you take care of them , uh , 01:20:38.774 --> 01:20:40.997 continually , uh , treating the leather 01:20:40.997 --> 01:20:40.149 on them and , uh , putting the 01:20:40.160 --> 01:20:42.327 waterproofing stuff back on them . And 01:20:42.327 --> 01:20:44.493 seal it . Usually what gives out first 01:20:44.493 --> 01:20:46.827 is the , the thread at the bottom there . 01:20:46.827 --> 01:20:48.882 Um , you know , the thickness of the 01:20:48.890 --> 01:20:51.049 actual tread starts to wear down . So 01:20:51.200 --> 01:20:53.311 that's usually when , when we replace 01:20:53.311 --> 01:20:55.311 the vote or if they get a , a small 01:20:55.311 --> 01:20:57.422 hole in them somewhere , you , that's 01:20:57.422 --> 01:20:59.756 about time to get it , get him replaced . 01:21:00.009 --> 01:21:02.120 So it sounds like a lot of , a lot of 01:21:02.120 --> 01:21:04.709 folks go , go through this , you know , 01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:07.270 private boot option . How does the fire 01:21:07.279 --> 01:21:09.390 department , you know , handle that ? 01:21:09.390 --> 01:21:11.723 Do they have a , a standard or a policy , 01:21:11.723 --> 01:21:13.946 you know , safety standard or policy of 01:21:13.946 --> 01:21:16.057 what type of boots that you can buy ? 01:21:16.057 --> 01:21:18.209 Uh , not to my knowledge . No , but , 01:21:18.220 --> 01:21:21.160 uh , all of the boot companies do 01:21:21.169 --> 01:21:23.680 follow the standards . NFP A standards 01:21:23.689 --> 01:21:27.359 for the , uh , nationwide . So . Ok . 01:21:27.370 --> 01:21:30.060 Do you have to notify your department 01:21:30.069 --> 01:21:32.291 that you're using your personal boots ? 01:21:32.291 --> 01:21:34.430 Not their boots ? No , we haven't had 01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:37.990 to do that . Ok . So if you , 01:21:38.290 --> 01:21:40.250 um , do people purchase their own 01:21:40.259 --> 01:21:43.220 turnout gear ? No , I haven't met 01:21:43.229 --> 01:21:45.451 anyone that purchased their own turnout 01:21:45.451 --> 01:21:48.580 gear . No . Ok . Um , 01:21:50.160 --> 01:21:52.160 so I guess this falls on the same , 01:21:52.549 --> 01:21:56.060 same , uh , area . So if you would , 01:21:56.209 --> 01:21:58.439 if you would use Newark Fire Department 01:21:58.450 --> 01:22:01.330 boots , they issued ones . Do they 01:22:01.339 --> 01:22:03.395 inspect those periodically ? Do they 01:22:03.395 --> 01:22:05.395 inspect your gear ? Yes , they also 01:22:05.395 --> 01:22:07.810 inspect our leather boots too . So , 01:22:08.009 --> 01:22:09.731 yes , uh , quarterly . We have 01:22:09.731 --> 01:22:12.020 inspectors . Ok . Is that the captain 01:22:12.029 --> 01:22:14.140 doing that or is that the battalion ? 01:22:14.140 --> 01:22:16.362 Chief or someone else . Uh , it will be 01:22:16.362 --> 01:22:18.529 the , the battalion chief , the deputy 01:22:18.529 --> 01:22:20.251 chief who's currently the tour 01:22:20.251 --> 01:22:22.473 commander and the , um , uh , the chief 01:22:22.473 --> 01:22:25.700 of the department . Have you heard 01:22:25.709 --> 01:22:29.640 of , uh , uh , boot failures similar 01:22:29.649 --> 01:22:31.680 to the one that you experience from 01:22:31.689 --> 01:22:33.411 other firefighters or have you 01:22:33.411 --> 01:22:35.745 experienced one of those ? Are you talk , 01:22:35.745 --> 01:22:37.911 are you talking about on the ship that 01:22:37.911 --> 01:22:41.779 night or prior to them ? Well , 01:22:42.129 --> 01:22:44.073 yeah . Have you had a boot failure 01:22:44.073 --> 01:22:46.919 prior ? No , I have not . Ok . And have 01:22:46.930 --> 01:22:48.930 you heard of any other firefighters 01:22:48.930 --> 01:22:51.529 that have had boot failures with , uh , 01:22:51.540 --> 01:22:54.729 similar to the , the manner in which 01:22:54.740 --> 01:22:57.770 yours bailed on July 5th ? Yes , there 01:22:57.779 --> 01:22:59.919 was one other firefighter uh , from 01:22:59.930 --> 01:23:02.041 engine 27 that had the same problem . 01:23:02.041 --> 01:23:04.609 His boots are also uh in Texas being 01:23:04.620 --> 01:23:07.649 reviewed and , uh , to my knowledge , 01:23:07.660 --> 01:23:09.216 there were roughly 10 other 01:23:09.216 --> 01:23:11.438 firefighters that had some type of melt 01:23:11.438 --> 01:23:13.939 damage on , on boots on the ship that 01:23:13.950 --> 01:23:17.390 night . Ok . Were they leather boots or 01:23:17.399 --> 01:23:20.120 they Newark rubber boots that I 01:23:20.129 --> 01:23:22.129 wouldn't know ? I didn't , I wasn't 01:23:22.129 --> 01:23:24.620 able to see everyone's gear . So I , I 01:23:24.629 --> 01:23:27.029 don't know who had no boots and who 01:23:27.040 --> 01:23:30.430 didn't . Ok . Thanks for that cap , 01:23:30.439 --> 01:23:32.383 Captain Rogers . I appreciate it . 01:23:32.383 --> 01:23:34.272 That's all the questions I have . 01:23:34.272 --> 01:23:38.209 You're welcome . M mate . Do you have 01:23:38.220 --> 01:23:41.399 any questions ? I have no further 01:23:41.410 --> 01:23:43.299 questions . Thank you , Captain . 01:23:49.669 --> 01:23:51.447 Thank you , Captain Rogers . Uh 01:23:51.447 --> 01:23:53.502 Commander . That's all the questions 01:23:53.502 --> 01:23:55.613 the team has for this witness at this 01:23:55.613 --> 01:23:58.069 time . Ok . Thank you , 01:24:01.529 --> 01:24:03.439 Ec Rogers will now offer the 01:24:03.450 --> 01:24:05.450 opportunity for questions and cross 01:24:05.450 --> 01:24:07.672 examination from each of the parties in 01:24:07.672 --> 01:24:09.506 interest uh as we have done with 01:24:09.506 --> 01:24:11.728 previous witnesses . In order to ensure 01:24:11.728 --> 01:24:13.950 equitable time and opportunity for each 01:24:13.950 --> 01:24:16.006 party in interest to ask questions . 01:24:16.006 --> 01:24:17.950 Each party will have approximately 01:24:17.950 --> 01:24:19.950 eight minutes for cross examination 01:24:19.950 --> 01:24:21.672 within the scope of our direct 01:24:21.672 --> 01:24:23.783 examination questions and relevant to 01:24:23.783 --> 01:24:25.450 informing the purpose of this 01:24:25.450 --> 01:24:27.759 investigation . And we will start with 01:24:27.770 --> 01:24:30.100 the city of Newark . He 01:24:35.020 --> 01:24:38.959 thank you , Gary Lipshutz L IP Shutz . 01:24:39.540 --> 01:24:41.540 I don't have any questions for this 01:24:41.540 --> 01:24:45.259 witness . Ok . 01:24:45.270 --> 01:24:47.479 Thank you . Uh , the port authority of 01:24:47.490 --> 01:24:50.370 New York , New Jersey and John Reilly 01:24:50.379 --> 01:24:54.310 Reilly . We don't have any questions 01:24:54.410 --> 01:24:58.189 for this witness . Thank 01:24:58.200 --> 01:24:59.430 you . Uh , Grimaldi . 01:25:03.330 --> 01:25:05.720 Thank you . Um , good morning , Captain 01:25:05.729 --> 01:25:07.896 Rogers . Can you hear me ? All right . 01:25:07.896 --> 01:25:09.896 Yes , sir . Good morning . Hi , I'm 01:25:09.896 --> 01:25:12.549 Robert o'connor . Uh , Oconnor , I'm an 01:25:12.560 --> 01:25:15.810 attorney for Grimaldi . Um , I believe 01:25:15.819 --> 01:25:17.763 you had said earlier that when you 01:25:17.763 --> 01:25:19.597 boarded the ship , a crew member 01:25:19.597 --> 01:25:21.819 escorted you up the stairs on the right 01:25:21.819 --> 01:25:23.652 side to deck 12 . Do I have that 01:25:23.652 --> 01:25:25.839 correct ? Yes , that's correct . When 01:25:25.850 --> 01:25:28.439 you arrived on deck 12 . Did you see 01:25:28.450 --> 01:25:30.617 any other members of the ship's crew ? 01:25:31.379 --> 01:25:34.390 Uh , yes , I did . What were they doing 01:25:34.399 --> 01:25:37.750 up on deck 12 ? Uh , when we first got 01:25:37.759 --> 01:25:41.390 up to the deck itself , um , it was a 01:25:41.399 --> 01:25:43.510 slightly lower area where we took the 01:25:43.510 --> 01:25:45.455 stairs up to the top of the deck . 01:25:45.455 --> 01:25:47.566 There was three gentlemen , that were 01:25:47.566 --> 01:25:49.788 just standing over there in that area . 01:25:49.788 --> 01:25:51.955 And then when we got up top to the top 01:25:51.955 --> 01:25:54.121 of the steps , there were multiple men 01:25:54.121 --> 01:25:56.177 that were using hose lines to , uh , 01:25:56.177 --> 01:25:59.120 put out the fire on deck 12 . The first 01:25:59.129 --> 01:26:00.962 three crew members that you just 01:26:00.962 --> 01:26:03.018 described seeing , were they using a 01:26:03.018 --> 01:26:05.939 hose line ? No , they were not . And 01:26:05.950 --> 01:26:08.200 the members up on , uh , crew members 01:26:08.209 --> 01:26:10.431 up on deck 12 , I believe you said they 01:26:10.431 --> 01:26:12.709 were using hoses as well . Right . Yes , 01:26:12.709 --> 01:26:14.765 that's correct . Were they using the 01:26:14.765 --> 01:26:17.500 hoses to extinguish fires ? Yes . On 01:26:17.509 --> 01:26:19.859 deck on deck 12 , the whatever car fire 01:26:19.870 --> 01:26:23.169 was left ? Ok . And were the hoses , uh , 01:26:23.180 --> 01:26:25.402 good enough to do the job up there ? In 01:26:25.402 --> 01:26:29.200 your opinion , where they were 01:26:29.209 --> 01:26:31.959 actually extinguishing the fires ? They 01:26:31.970 --> 01:26:33.803 were extinguishing the fires . I 01:26:33.803 --> 01:26:35.970 wouldn't say they were the proper size 01:26:35.970 --> 01:26:38.192 for extinguishing that amount of fire . 01:26:38.192 --> 01:26:40.248 No , I , I believe you said that you 01:26:40.248 --> 01:26:42.359 met with a , uh , ship liaison , uh , 01:26:42.359 --> 01:26:44.790 up on deck 12 . Is that , do I have 01:26:44.799 --> 01:26:46.910 that correct ? I didn't meet with him 01:26:46.910 --> 01:26:49.810 personally . No . So was that liaison 01:26:49.819 --> 01:26:52.549 talking with , uh , the chiefs who were 01:26:52.560 --> 01:26:54.782 up on deck 12 ? I believe that would be 01:26:54.970 --> 01:26:57.419 Kepco and , and maybe Barasa . Yes , he 01:26:57.430 --> 01:26:59.652 was speaking with the battalion chief C 01:26:59.652 --> 01:27:02.879 CCO and , uh , battalion chief ko I 01:27:02.890 --> 01:27:05.350 said , I believe you said earlier that 01:27:05.359 --> 01:27:07.526 you directly reported to him . Right . 01:27:07.589 --> 01:27:10.069 Yes , that's correct . And was he the 01:27:10.080 --> 01:27:12.899 one who ordered you to go down and 01:27:12.910 --> 01:27:16.339 enter De 10 . Uh Yes . 01:27:17.830 --> 01:27:20.600 What if anything did he tell you about 01:27:20.609 --> 01:27:22.890 the conditions on deck 10 before you 01:27:22.899 --> 01:27:25.129 went down ? Uh conditions were relayed 01:27:25.140 --> 01:27:27.729 by engine 27 since they were the first 01:27:27.740 --> 01:27:30.600 uh initial attack line to uh Battalion 01:27:30.609 --> 01:27:32.498 Chief Maresa . And they were also 01:27:32.498 --> 01:27:34.990 relate to uh battalion Chief Kepco . Um 01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:37.111 when we were making our way down , we 01:27:37.111 --> 01:27:39.959 were the understanding that we had was 01:27:39.970 --> 01:27:42.192 that we were going down to uh , confirm 01:27:42.192 --> 01:27:44.359 conditions and that the fire was out . 01:27:44.379 --> 01:27:47.580 Did , uh , Battalion Chief Kepco tell 01:27:47.589 --> 01:27:50.160 you that CO2 had been released into 01:27:50.169 --> 01:27:52.770 that space . Uh No , he did not . 01:27:54.549 --> 01:27:56.605 So I believe you just said that when 01:27:56.605 --> 01:27:58.716 you were heading down to go into deck 01:27:58.716 --> 01:28:00.660 10 , uh , and I , I might be using 01:28:00.660 --> 01:28:02.771 slightly different language , but you 01:28:02.771 --> 01:28:04.993 were going in to investigate and see if 01:28:04.993 --> 01:28:07.216 the fire was out . Yes , we were making 01:28:07.216 --> 01:28:09.327 sure that the fire was not done . Did 01:28:09.327 --> 01:28:11.382 Battalion Chief Kepco tell you to go 01:28:11.382 --> 01:28:13.493 into deck 10 to search for any of the 01:28:13.493 --> 01:28:15.500 ship's crew members if any of the 01:28:15.509 --> 01:28:17.959 ship's crew members were missing ? Uh , 01:28:17.970 --> 01:28:21.799 no , he did not . And when you entered 01:28:21.810 --> 01:28:24.089 deck 10 , I believe you said that you 01:28:24.100 --> 01:28:26.220 only saw small pockets of fire . Is 01:28:26.229 --> 01:28:28.340 that correct ? Yes , that's correct . 01:28:28.709 --> 01:28:30.820 And were you able to knock down those 01:28:30.820 --> 01:28:32.987 small pockets of fire using the hose , 01:28:32.987 --> 01:28:35.259 the ship's hose that had been pushed 01:28:35.270 --> 01:28:37.270 into deck 10 , the small pockets of 01:28:37.270 --> 01:28:39.492 fire ? Yes , we were able to knock them 01:28:39.492 --> 01:28:41.659 down , but they did keep reappearing , 01:28:42.970 --> 01:28:45.290 I believe . Uh , earlier , you had said 01:28:45.299 --> 01:28:47.990 that you had no shipboard fire training . 01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:50.819 Is that correct ? That's correct . Are 01:28:50.830 --> 01:28:53.149 you familiar with fixed fire 01:28:53.160 --> 01:28:56.680 suppression systems ? No . 01:28:57.839 --> 01:29:00.140 Uh So are you familiar with the use of 01:29:00.149 --> 01:29:02.939 CO2 as a fixed fire suppression system 01:29:02.950 --> 01:29:05.549 agent ? Are we talking about on a boat 01:29:05.560 --> 01:29:07.449 or are we talking about in like a 01:29:07.449 --> 01:29:10.089 kitchen ? Uh Let's talk about both . 01:29:10.100 --> 01:29:12.211 Let's talk about a kitchen first . Um 01:29:12.270 --> 01:29:14.680 Are you familiar with the use of CO2 as 01:29:14.689 --> 01:29:16.911 a fixed firefighting suppression system 01:29:16.911 --> 01:29:19.049 in a kitchen ? Uh No , but generally 01:29:19.060 --> 01:29:21.069 they're used as like a dry chemical 01:29:21.080 --> 01:29:23.720 extinguisher in the kitchen . So I'm 01:29:24.250 --> 01:29:26.479 just kind of trying to relate it myself 01:29:26.490 --> 01:29:28.629 to something that it would be . But 01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:31.200 you're not familiar with uh the use of 01:29:31.209 --> 01:29:33.376 CO2 as a fixed fire suppression system 01:29:33.376 --> 01:29:36.339 agent on a ship . No , I'm not . Ok . 01:29:37.979 --> 01:29:40.390 I believe , uh you had said earlier 01:29:40.399 --> 01:29:44.060 that when you , um , went to 01:29:44.350 --> 01:29:46.406 Battalion Chief Maresca to report to 01:29:46.406 --> 01:29:48.294 him , the conditions that you saw 01:29:48.294 --> 01:29:51.609 inside of deck 10 that uh you had a 01:29:51.620 --> 01:29:54.660 tick with you . Uh , or , or when you 01:29:54.669 --> 01:29:56.891 let me back up a second , when you went 01:29:56.891 --> 01:29:59.169 into deck 10 , you had a tick with you , 01:29:59.169 --> 01:30:01.280 right ? Yes , I had a thermal imaging 01:30:01.280 --> 01:30:03.502 camera with me when I went into deck 10 01:30:03.502 --> 01:30:06.740 and when you left deck 10 to report to 01:30:06.750 --> 01:30:08.917 Battalion Chief Maresca , what did you 01:30:08.917 --> 01:30:11.140 do with that tick ? I gave that tick to 01:30:11.149 --> 01:30:14.419 firefighter Brooks . Do you know what 01:30:14.430 --> 01:30:17.330 happened to that tick ? No , I do not . 01:30:17.379 --> 01:30:19.546 It was never returned to you . No , it 01:30:19.546 --> 01:30:21.601 was never returned to me . There was 01:30:21.601 --> 01:30:23.768 multiple pieces of equipment that were 01:30:23.768 --> 01:30:23.540 never returned to me after the fire , 01:30:25.009 --> 01:30:27.120 but I , I also went to the hospital . 01:30:27.120 --> 01:30:30.250 So I understand 01:30:31.709 --> 01:30:34.359 when , uh , I believe you said that 01:30:34.370 --> 01:30:36.589 your boots had failed . And , uh , 01:30:36.640 --> 01:30:38.950 Battalion Chief Maresca had ordered you 01:30:38.959 --> 01:30:41.370 to go back up to deck 12 and you opened 01:30:41.379 --> 01:30:44.430 up the sliding door on a minivan and 01:30:44.439 --> 01:30:46.328 you , uh , stepped inside to that 01:30:46.328 --> 01:30:49.990 minivan . And then subsequently , um , 01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:52.167 you learned that there had been Mayday 01:30:52.167 --> 01:30:55.060 calls . Is that correct ? Around that 01:30:55.069 --> 01:30:57.740 time when you learned that there were 01:30:57.750 --> 01:31:00.200 Mayday calls , did you notice any 01:31:00.209 --> 01:31:03.259 change in smoke conditions up on deck 01:31:03.270 --> 01:31:06.919 12 ? Specifically in the area of the , 01:31:06.930 --> 01:31:09.263 uh , the door to the aft port staircase ? 01:31:09.649 --> 01:31:11.760 Uh , yes , there was smoke coming out 01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:14.038 of that door . Did they , did they can , 01:31:14.038 --> 01:31:16.205 can you describe that smoke ? For me ? 01:31:16.205 --> 01:31:19.000 It was a black and it came down 01:31:21.020 --> 01:31:23.250 maybe a quarter of the way down the top 01:31:23.259 --> 01:31:25.481 of the door . So if you were facing the 01:31:25.481 --> 01:31:27.703 door , only a quarter of the top of the 01:31:27.703 --> 01:31:29.815 door actually had smoke coming out of 01:31:29.815 --> 01:31:31.703 it . They didn't fully charge the 01:31:31.703 --> 01:31:33.759 entire doorway . Did you notice that 01:31:33.759 --> 01:31:35.926 whether those smoke conditions changed 01:31:35.926 --> 01:31:38.037 around the time of the May Day or was 01:31:38.037 --> 01:31:40.092 it consistent from the time that you 01:31:40.092 --> 01:31:42.203 went down the stairs to enter De 10 . 01:31:42.203 --> 01:31:44.259 And also when you learned that there 01:31:44.259 --> 01:31:46.370 were May days changed around the time 01:31:46.370 --> 01:31:49.720 of the May Day . The initial , um when 01:31:49.729 --> 01:31:51.896 we initially made entry , there was no 01:31:51.896 --> 01:31:54.060 smoke in the hallway at all . And can 01:31:54.069 --> 01:31:56.069 you just describe the change for us 01:31:58.569 --> 01:32:00.625 all I saw ? Was it coming out of the 01:32:00.625 --> 01:32:02.791 door ? That's , that's the only change 01:32:02.791 --> 01:32:04.180 that I saw . Ok , 01:32:09.819 --> 01:32:12.080 Mister o'connor about 11 more minute . 01:32:12.879 --> 01:32:15.101 Thank you , commander . And , and thank 01:32:15.101 --> 01:32:17.101 you , Captain Rogers . I have uh no 01:32:17.101 --> 01:32:18.879 more questions at this time . I 01:32:18.879 --> 01:32:22.310 appreciate it . Ok . Thank you . Uh 01:32:22.319 --> 01:32:25.459 Ports America . Uh Good morning , 01:32:25.470 --> 01:32:27.910 Captain . My name is Gino Zang . Can 01:32:27.919 --> 01:32:30.197 you hear me ? Yes , sir , good morning . 01:32:30.197 --> 01:32:32.709 Just have a few follow up questions for 01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:36.350 you , sir . Um The , the you 01:32:37.310 --> 01:32:39.330 uh I'm correct and we've heard this 01:32:39.339 --> 01:32:42.740 phrase used um during prior Testament 01:32:42.750 --> 01:32:44.639 in the fire department . New Fire 01:32:44.639 --> 01:32:46.194 Department is essentially a 01:32:46.194 --> 01:32:48.399 paramilitary organization . Is , is 01:32:48.410 --> 01:32:50.521 that correct ? Yes , that's correct . 01:32:50.830 --> 01:32:53.890 And am I correct that um given that you , 01:32:53.899 --> 01:32:55.621 you are required to follow the 01:32:55.621 --> 01:32:57.732 instructions of battalion chiefs that 01:32:57.732 --> 01:32:59.843 you're given at the scene of a fire ? 01:32:59.843 --> 01:33:01.810 Yes , that is correct . And at the 01:33:01.819 --> 01:33:03.875 scene that you , when you arrived on 01:33:03.875 --> 01:33:05.930 the top deck of the vessel , in this 01:33:05.930 --> 01:33:08.208 case , there were two battalion chiefs , 01:33:08.208 --> 01:33:10.208 President Morasco and Kepco . Yes , 01:33:10.208 --> 01:33:12.500 that's correct . And who , who or which 01:33:12.509 --> 01:33:14.565 one of them or both ? You can please 01:33:14.565 --> 01:33:17.189 tell me , uh uh indicated to you or 01:33:17.200 --> 01:33:19.680 ordered you folks to go down and 01:33:19.689 --> 01:33:22.990 investigate , uh , deck 10 . Uh , deck 01:33:23.000 --> 01:33:25.111 10 , the original investigation would 01:33:25.111 --> 01:33:27.111 have been , uh , Chief Maresco went 01:33:27.111 --> 01:33:29.444 down , uh , with two other firefighters . 01:33:29.444 --> 01:33:31.056 So he was the initial , uh , 01:33:31.056 --> 01:33:33.709 investigator and then your group was 01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:36.029 ordered to go inside the deck , uh , 01:33:36.040 --> 01:33:39.370 later in the incident . Yes . And , and 01:33:39.379 --> 01:33:41.601 you've , you've , as a captain followed 01:33:41.601 --> 01:33:43.601 that order . Correct . Yes , that's 01:33:43.601 --> 01:33:46.060 correct . Were , were you ever told or 01:33:46.069 --> 01:33:48.160 trained that when there's a ship or 01:33:48.169 --> 01:33:50.919 fire uh with a vessel that has a fixed 01:33:50.930 --> 01:33:53.290 Co2 suppression system ? That the 01:33:53.299 --> 01:33:55.979 proper and safe protocol is not to 01:33:55.990 --> 01:33:58.759 enter that space and to literally wait 01:33:58.770 --> 01:34:00.979 up to 48 hours to see if the fire is 01:34:00.990 --> 01:34:03.200 extinguished . You know , I think an 01:34:03.209 --> 01:34:05.431 objection is appropriate here . I don't 01:34:05.431 --> 01:34:07.598 believe this was the subject of direct 01:34:07.598 --> 01:34:09.820 examination . This is gary lips shuts . 01:34:09.820 --> 01:34:11.542 Um So I'm just gonna post that 01:34:11.542 --> 01:34:12.709 objection , please . 01:34:16.029 --> 01:34:19.379 Um Mr Zani , do you have anything to , 01:34:19.390 --> 01:34:22.100 to add ? Yes . Well , he was asked 01:34:22.109 --> 01:34:24.850 about um what he was instructed to do . 01:34:25.500 --> 01:34:27.556 He was also asked about his training 01:34:27.556 --> 01:34:30.250 and his lack of training with respect 01:34:30.259 --> 01:34:32.759 to a CO2 fixed fire suppression system . 01:34:32.770 --> 01:34:35.040 The witness further testified that he 01:34:35.049 --> 01:34:37.271 believed the limiting factor was a lack 01:34:37.271 --> 01:34:39.959 of training . All I'm asking him now is 01:34:39.970 --> 01:34:42.879 whether he was ever told or trained as 01:34:42.890 --> 01:34:45.279 to what he should do uh in the 01:34:45.290 --> 01:34:48.549 circumstance of a six a fixed CO2 fire 01:34:48.560 --> 01:34:50.504 suppression system aboard a vessel 01:34:50.504 --> 01:34:52.782 that's been set off . If we heard from , 01:34:52.782 --> 01:34:55.540 uh , we heard from the witness who was , 01:34:55.859 --> 01:34:57.803 uh , from the port of Virginia who 01:34:57.803 --> 01:34:59.970 testified that the proper training 01:34:59.979 --> 01:35:02.146 would have required these firefighters 01:35:02.180 --> 01:35:04.180 not to enter the space for at least 01:35:04.189 --> 01:35:07.060 2424 to 48 hours . And I'm just trying 01:35:07.069 --> 01:35:09.450 to find out if this witness was a 01:35:09.459 --> 01:35:11.570 captain in the Newark Fire Department 01:35:11.570 --> 01:35:13.515 was ever given the benefit of that 01:35:13.515 --> 01:35:15.970 training or instruction . Um I'll allow 01:35:15.979 --> 01:35:18.201 the question to the extent that it , it 01:35:18.201 --> 01:35:21.279 does probe his knowledge as to the um 01:35:21.290 --> 01:35:23.529 responding with fixed fire suppression 01:35:23.540 --> 01:35:27.509 systems . Uh No , I was not trained on 01:35:27.520 --> 01:35:30.720 that . And , and had you known this at 01:35:30.729 --> 01:35:32.840 the scene of the fire ? I assume that 01:35:32.840 --> 01:35:35.062 would have been something you can , you 01:35:35.062 --> 01:35:37.173 would have considered before entering 01:35:37.173 --> 01:35:39.640 space that first . And , and if you had 01:35:39.649 --> 01:35:41.871 been ordered to enter the space by your 01:35:41.871 --> 01:35:43.927 battalion chiefs with your men , and 01:35:43.927 --> 01:35:46.169 you had known about this protocol , I 01:35:46.180 --> 01:35:48.236 assume you would have questioned the 01:35:48.236 --> 01:35:50.402 battalion chief and had a discussion . 01:35:50.402 --> 01:35:52.580 I have , I have that ability . Yes . 01:35:53.830 --> 01:35:57.819 Um You testified , you didn't know 01:35:57.830 --> 01:35:59.941 what you were getting into your , you 01:35:59.941 --> 01:36:02.108 and your men didn't know what you were 01:36:02.108 --> 01:36:04.330 getting into when you indicated lack of 01:36:04.330 --> 01:36:06.608 training was a limiting factor by that . 01:36:06.608 --> 01:36:08.497 Did you mean that you had no , no 01:36:08.497 --> 01:36:10.441 training with respect to shipboard 01:36:10.441 --> 01:36:12.386 firefighting ? And you didn't know 01:36:12.386 --> 01:36:14.274 these types of things such as the 01:36:14.274 --> 01:36:16.386 system should just be allowed to work 01:36:16.386 --> 01:36:18.497 and suppress the fire for up to 24 to 01:36:18.497 --> 01:36:22.359 48 hours . Uh , yes , that I believe 01:36:22.370 --> 01:36:25.279 that would be correct , but it was also , 01:36:25.290 --> 01:36:28.770 um , tactics itself was more why I said 01:36:28.779 --> 01:36:32.259 that . Now , um , you folks , the 01:36:32.270 --> 01:36:34.381 Newark Fire Department , you yourself 01:36:34.381 --> 01:36:36.603 personally your man , you know , things 01:36:36.603 --> 01:36:38.659 like putting out car fires , right ? 01:36:38.659 --> 01:36:40.992 That's something you do regularly . Yes , 01:36:40.992 --> 01:36:42.992 that's correct . But this shipboard 01:36:42.992 --> 01:36:44.714 firefighting environment was a 01:36:44.714 --> 01:36:46.826 completely different environment that 01:36:46.826 --> 01:36:48.937 you had never been trained in . Yes , 01:36:48.937 --> 01:36:51.520 that's correct . Um , in terms of 01:36:51.529 --> 01:36:54.669 manpower , uh you , you testified , 01:36:54.680 --> 01:36:57.013 there's no minimum staffing , I believe . 01:36:57.013 --> 01:36:59.100 Did I get that correctly ? Uh Yes , 01:36:59.109 --> 01:37:01.165 that's correct . And on the day that 01:37:01.169 --> 01:37:03.660 you , you responded with your , uh , 01:37:03.870 --> 01:37:05.814 you , was it a ladder or an engine 01:37:05.814 --> 01:37:08.220 company ? Ladder company ? You were the 01:37:08.229 --> 01:37:10.285 captain . You had two firefighters , 01:37:10.285 --> 01:37:12.340 correct ? I had three firefighters , 01:37:12.470 --> 01:37:14.359 three some days . You have four , 01:37:14.549 --> 01:37:16.660 sometimes we have four , sometimes we 01:37:16.660 --> 01:37:18.938 have five if a company is lucky enough . 01:37:18.938 --> 01:37:20.938 Yes . But the , the fire department 01:37:20.938 --> 01:37:23.049 itself doesn't set a minimum level at 01:37:23.049 --> 01:37:25.327 which you can work on a particular day . 01:37:25.729 --> 01:37:27.930 I believe . If there is a minimum , it 01:37:27.939 --> 01:37:29.883 would be one and two . But I don't 01:37:29.883 --> 01:37:32.050 believe it's anywhere in writing . And 01:37:32.050 --> 01:37:34.217 you said that this is the term of that 01:37:34.217 --> 01:37:36.328 roll call . Can you explain that ? Is 01:37:36.328 --> 01:37:36.169 it a matter of who , who's there when 01:37:36.180 --> 01:37:38.740 you do roll call ? Uh Not for my 01:37:38.750 --> 01:37:40.806 personal roll call . Uh It's done in 01:37:40.806 --> 01:37:43.028 the morning at the deputy chief's level 01:37:43.028 --> 01:37:45.560 and they move , uh , firefighters or 01:37:45.569 --> 01:37:48.359 call in overtime . Ok . So there's a , 01:37:48.589 --> 01:37:51.069 there's a decision making process by 01:37:51.080 --> 01:37:53.310 the deputy chief at RO call as to how 01:37:53.319 --> 01:37:55.263 many folks , how many firefighters 01:37:55.263 --> 01:37:57.597 you're going to get on a particular day . 01:37:57.597 --> 01:37:59.819 Yes . And that's based on vacations and 01:37:59.819 --> 01:38:02.959 sick leaves in the morning . Um , now 01:38:02.970 --> 01:38:04.914 you testified that equipment was a 01:38:04.914 --> 01:38:06.748 limiting factor and if I have it 01:38:06.748 --> 01:38:09.069 correctly , the radios did not work so 01:38:09.080 --> 01:38:11.247 that you could effectively communicate 01:38:11.247 --> 01:38:13.413 inside this , the deck of the vessel . 01:38:13.413 --> 01:38:15.569 That is correct . And you were left , 01:38:15.580 --> 01:38:17.691 then I would assume with hand signals 01:38:17.691 --> 01:38:19.913 or face to face contact with the guy uh 01:38:19.913 --> 01:38:22.080 and , and communication with the other 01:38:22.080 --> 01:38:24.191 firefighters . Yes , that's correct . 01:38:24.191 --> 01:38:26.520 So if you were out of sight of uh out 01:38:26.529 --> 01:38:28.473 of the sight of line of one of the 01:38:28.473 --> 01:38:31.410 firefighters , uh or vision , uh in far 01:38:31.419 --> 01:38:33.586 enough away that you couldn't speak to 01:38:33.586 --> 01:38:35.586 the firefighter , you had no way of 01:38:35.586 --> 01:38:37.586 effectively communicating with them 01:38:37.586 --> 01:38:39.770 that day on the vessel . Correct . You 01:38:39.779 --> 01:38:41.890 testified about the bottles and the , 01:38:41.890 --> 01:38:45.459 the 30 minute uh uh efficiency or time , 01:38:45.470 --> 01:38:48.890 time , uh or air supply , which 01:38:49.180 --> 01:38:51.450 actually effectively means 15 to 20 01:38:51.459 --> 01:38:53.737 minutes , right ? Yes , that's correct . 01:38:53.919 --> 01:38:55.970 And that includes , that depends on 01:38:56.049 --> 01:38:58.290 exertion , right ? But that includes 01:38:58.299 --> 01:39:00.355 the time that it takes you to get to 01:39:00.355 --> 01:39:02.299 the spot inside the vessel in this 01:39:02.299 --> 01:39:04.410 instance where you're gonna fight the 01:39:04.410 --> 01:39:06.466 fire , right ? You put the , you put 01:39:06.466 --> 01:39:06.359 the , this the mask on and you're 01:39:06.370 --> 01:39:08.592 breathing through it through the system 01:39:08.592 --> 01:39:10.814 from the time you get into the affected 01:39:10.814 --> 01:39:12.981 space . Yes , that's correct . So , if 01:39:12.981 --> 01:39:14.950 it takes you five minutes to get , 01:39:14.970 --> 01:39:17.080 follow the hose line to where you're 01:39:17.089 --> 01:39:19.919 fighting the fire , uh , then you might 01:39:19.930 --> 01:39:22.000 only have five or 10 minutes left 01:39:22.520 --> 01:39:24.576 before you have to get out . Right . 01:39:24.576 --> 01:39:27.410 That's correct . And , uh , that , that 01:39:27.419 --> 01:39:29.419 implicates manpower . You indicated 01:39:29.419 --> 01:39:31.363 that manpower was another limiting 01:39:31.363 --> 01:39:34.299 factor , right ? Yes . So if you have 01:39:34.310 --> 01:39:36.199 five minutes inside a space or 10 01:39:36.199 --> 01:39:38.500 minutes inside a space to fight a fire 01:39:38.509 --> 01:39:40.620 before you , you have to leave to get 01:39:40.620 --> 01:39:42.676 out safely . You have to have enough 01:39:42.676 --> 01:39:45.189 men on your crew or , or backup men to 01:39:45.200 --> 01:39:47.490 come to , to continually go in and out . 01:39:47.500 --> 01:39:49.611 Right . Yes , that would be correct . 01:39:50.390 --> 01:39:54.140 Um Now just a few questions about your 01:39:54.149 --> 01:39:57.540 boots , uh you had leather boots 01:39:57.549 --> 01:40:00.520 because they allow you to , to uh more 01:40:00.529 --> 01:40:02.751 maneuverability , more comfort in doing 01:40:02.751 --> 01:40:04.973 your job and your job requires a lot of 01:40:04.973 --> 01:40:07.029 climbing and , and stepping up and , 01:40:07.029 --> 01:40:09.251 and so on and so forth . You're on your 01:40:09.251 --> 01:40:11.140 feet all the time , right ? Yes , 01:40:11.140 --> 01:40:13.029 that's correct . Uh But the , the 01:40:13.029 --> 01:40:15.251 leather boots , uh you , you're also in 01:40:15.251 --> 01:40:17.362 whether it's on the ship or , or at a 01:40:17.362 --> 01:40:19.418 fire , you're in a water environment 01:40:19.418 --> 01:40:21.473 all the time , right ? You're always 01:40:21.473 --> 01:40:21.000 stepping in water , you're always 01:40:21.009 --> 01:40:23.120 getting your boots wet . Yes , that's 01:40:23.120 --> 01:40:25.919 correct . And that requires , I assume , 01:40:25.930 --> 01:40:27.986 and you , you , you mentioned this , 01:40:27.986 --> 01:40:30.097 that requires waterproofing , uh , at 01:40:30.097 --> 01:40:32.319 some , at some , uh , interval of those 01:40:32.319 --> 01:40:35.339 boots to keep them , uh , in usable 01:40:35.350 --> 01:40:37.540 condition . Right . Yes . There's a 01:40:37.549 --> 01:40:39.771 proper care and maintenance for every , 01:40:39.771 --> 01:40:41.910 every piece of equipment . The , the 01:40:41.919 --> 01:40:44.141 Newark Fire Department though , doesn't 01:40:44.141 --> 01:40:46.197 issue these boots to you . Uh , they 01:40:46.197 --> 01:40:48.475 just issue these standard rubber boots . 01:40:48.479 --> 01:40:50.740 Right . Yes , that's correct . And they 01:40:50.750 --> 01:40:52.979 have no standards as to the , to the 01:40:52.990 --> 01:40:54.990 leather boots , whether , how , how 01:40:54.990 --> 01:40:57.259 many years you can use them . They , 01:40:57.270 --> 01:40:59.810 that , that sort of thing . Not to my 01:40:59.819 --> 01:41:02.740 knowledge . No , that's all I have . 01:41:02.750 --> 01:41:05.680 Thank you , sir . All right . Thank you . 01:41:06.910 --> 01:41:08.799 Uh , and , uh , American Maritime 01:41:08.799 --> 01:41:12.399 Services . Thank you commander . Uh , 01:41:12.740 --> 01:41:14.962 good morning , Captain Rogers . Um , my 01:41:14.962 --> 01:41:17.018 name is Matthew Pale Friel Maar . Uh 01:41:17.018 --> 01:41:19.129 Thank you for appearing today . Thank 01:41:19.129 --> 01:41:21.184 you for your service . Um Just a few 01:41:21.184 --> 01:41:23.296 questions , hopefully just to clarify 01:41:23.296 --> 01:41:25.240 things and we can wrap this up and 01:41:25.240 --> 01:41:27.462 everybody can go to lunch . Um , you're 01:41:27.462 --> 01:41:29.573 normally with Ladder Four . Correct . 01:41:29.573 --> 01:41:31.684 Uh Ladder 11 . Correct . Yes , that's 01:41:31.684 --> 01:41:31.500 correct . And on the day on this date 01:41:31.509 --> 01:41:34.060 you were with Ladder four . Yes , 01:41:34.069 --> 01:41:36.236 that's correct . Ok . And is there any 01:41:36.236 --> 01:41:38.402 particular reason you were with Ladder 01:41:38.402 --> 01:41:40.236 Four on this on July 5th ? I was 01:41:40.236 --> 01:41:42.125 working a mutual swap for another 01:41:42.125 --> 01:41:44.347 captain . I owed him a day . Ok . And I 01:41:44.347 --> 01:41:46.347 mean , is it fair to say that ? And 01:41:46.347 --> 01:41:48.402 this is the day after Fourth of July 01:41:48.402 --> 01:41:50.569 people were taking vacations , I don't 01:41:50.569 --> 01:41:52.680 wanna say probably had a lot of calls 01:41:52.680 --> 01:41:54.847 with fireworks . Or something like the 01:41:54.847 --> 01:41:57.069 night before ? But could that , could , 01:41:57.069 --> 01:41:59.291 that have affected , I guess , manpower 01:41:59.291 --> 01:41:58.569 or the reasons for , see , swaps on the 01:41:58.580 --> 01:42:02.040 day after a holiday like that ? I 01:42:02.049 --> 01:42:04.382 wouldn't be able to speculate that . No . 01:42:04.382 --> 01:42:06.493 All right . No problem . Um , and how 01:42:06.493 --> 01:42:08.771 many times have you worked with Ladder ? 01:42:08.771 --> 01:42:10.771 Four , multiple times throughout my 01:42:10.771 --> 01:42:12.938 career ? Ok . Um , can you approximate 01:42:12.938 --> 01:42:14.993 it ? Is it ? And multiple , multiple 01:42:14.993 --> 01:42:17.216 things ? This is , are we in the tens , 01:42:17.216 --> 01:42:19.438 twenties , hundreds or are we less than 01:42:19.438 --> 01:42:21.660 10 ? I would say tens , twenties ? Ok . 01:42:21.660 --> 01:42:21.560 All right . And when's the , I guess 01:42:21.569 --> 01:42:23.625 the last time prior to July 5th that 01:42:23.625 --> 01:42:25.819 you worked with latter four that I'm 01:42:25.830 --> 01:42:27.830 not sure I'd have to go back in the 01:42:27.830 --> 01:42:29.886 book for . Do you think it was uh in 01:42:29.886 --> 01:42:32.720 2023 or further than that ? I don't 01:42:32.729 --> 01:42:34.951 remember . I can't , I can't keep track 01:42:34.951 --> 01:42:36.951 of that . To be honest with you , I 01:42:36.951 --> 01:42:39.118 would have to go back into my personal 01:42:39.118 --> 01:42:41.007 records and then go back into the 01:42:41.007 --> 01:42:43.173 journal of that company to make sure I 01:42:43.173 --> 01:42:42.640 wouldn't be able to give you a proper 01:42:42.649 --> 01:42:44.371 answer . I'm sorry . And , and 01:42:44.649 --> 01:42:48.029 approximations and general rules , 01:42:48.040 --> 01:42:50.207 that's fine if you don't have an exact 01:42:50.207 --> 01:42:52.429 date . That's ok . Um , in terms of , I 01:42:52.429 --> 01:42:54.484 guess working with Brooks , um , the 01:42:54.484 --> 01:42:56.373 Silver and SOTO had you done that 01:42:56.373 --> 01:42:58.540 before ? Yes , I have . And that would 01:42:58.540 --> 01:43:00.762 have been one of the times you'd switch 01:43:00.762 --> 01:43:00.720 to latter four . Was that with other 01:43:00.729 --> 01:43:03.939 companies ? Uh , the Times with , uh , 01:43:03.950 --> 01:43:06.479 firefighter Soto and , and , uh , and 01:43:06.490 --> 01:43:08.490 firefighter Da Silva . Yes , it was 01:43:08.490 --> 01:43:11.319 when I did those swaps . But , uh , uh , 01:43:11.330 --> 01:43:13.386 firefighter Brooks and I were , uh , 01:43:13.386 --> 01:43:16.970 were friends , um , when 01:43:16.979 --> 01:43:19.240 he , uh , first got on the job , uh , 01:43:19.669 --> 01:43:23.169 he was a probie and , uh , I , uh , 01:43:23.660 --> 01:43:25.716 Hannah was one of my guys when I was 01:43:26.569 --> 01:43:30.569 stationed at that . Right . And wait 01:43:30.580 --> 01:43:34.020 for a long time and , and , and 01:43:34.870 --> 01:43:37.037 terribly , we're sorry for your loss . 01:43:37.037 --> 01:43:38.870 We know he was a close , a close 01:43:38.870 --> 01:43:41.689 colleague . Um , but that would also , 01:43:42.100 --> 01:43:44.267 you know , transition to something you 01:43:44.267 --> 01:43:46.322 said earlier about , you know , when 01:43:46.322 --> 01:43:48.544 you split up the teams , you and , um , 01:43:48.544 --> 01:43:50.544 uh , Captain Brooks worked together 01:43:50.544 --> 01:43:52.378 goes because you guys had worked 01:43:52.378 --> 01:43:54.600 together before . Right ? Yeah , that , 01:43:54.600 --> 01:43:56.767 that wasn't , that wasn't specifically 01:43:56.767 --> 01:43:56.339 why I , I split up the teams the way 01:43:56.350 --> 01:43:58.350 that I did , it just happened to be 01:43:58.350 --> 01:44:00.406 that soto and Da Silva were standing 01:44:00.406 --> 01:44:02.406 furthest away from me and they were 01:44:02.406 --> 01:44:04.517 closest to the crew that was going in 01:44:04.517 --> 01:44:04.330 and , and I happened to be standing on 01:44:04.339 --> 01:44:07.970 my left . Ok . Um You mentioned earlier 01:44:07.979 --> 01:44:09.868 about , um , the equipment checks 01:44:09.868 --> 01:44:11.979 usually at the beginning of the day , 01:44:11.979 --> 01:44:13.979 correct ? Yes . Are there any other 01:44:13.979 --> 01:44:16.201 periodic checks of equipment throughout 01:44:16.201 --> 01:44:18.201 the day ? Uh , throughout the day , 01:44:18.201 --> 01:44:20.423 sometimes if we're using equipment at , 01:44:20.423 --> 01:44:23.080 at other runs . Um , and it's brought 01:44:23.089 --> 01:44:25.200 to my attention that it fails . We'll 01:44:25.200 --> 01:44:27.311 call special service and fill out the 01:44:27.311 --> 01:44:29.422 paperwork . I got the equipment and , 01:44:29.422 --> 01:44:31.756 uh , make the proper notifications ? Ok . 01:44:31.756 --> 01:44:33.478 Are there any , um , mandatory 01:44:33.478 --> 01:44:35.478 equipment checks after being used , 01:44:35.478 --> 01:44:37.756 even if there isn't a problem reported ? 01:44:37.756 --> 01:44:39.922 So , if you had a couple calls earlier 01:44:39.922 --> 01:44:39.584 that day and you used a certain piece 01:44:39.595 --> 01:44:41.651 of equipment , is it mandatory check 01:44:41.651 --> 01:44:43.595 that after that call ? Yes . Every 01:44:43.595 --> 01:44:45.817 piece of equipment is reinspected after 01:44:45.817 --> 01:44:48.039 that call . Once we get either on scene 01:44:48.039 --> 01:44:50.095 or once we get back to the firehouse 01:44:50.095 --> 01:44:52.317 makes sense . And obviously that's time 01:44:52.317 --> 01:44:54.428 permitting , you know , if you had to 01:44:54.428 --> 01:44:56.539 go to another call . Correct . That's 01:44:56.539 --> 01:44:58.539 correct . Yes . Ok . But it will be 01:44:58.539 --> 01:45:00.706 done if we happen to get a call on the 01:45:00.706 --> 01:45:00.700 way back . Uh , you know , from 01:45:00.709 --> 01:45:02.820 whatever call we're responding to and 01:45:02.820 --> 01:45:05.042 we happen to have to go to another call 01:45:05.042 --> 01:45:04.990 as soon as we get back to the firehouse . 01:45:05.040 --> 01:45:07.207 The first available moment , we , uh , 01:45:07.207 --> 01:45:09.318 we recheck that equipment and , and , 01:45:09.318 --> 01:45:11.484 uh , make sure our functions under the 01:45:11.484 --> 01:45:11.350 r properly makes sense . Now , are 01:45:11.359 --> 01:45:13.081 there , would there be records 01:45:13.081 --> 01:45:15.081 reflecting that , that , that , you 01:45:15.081 --> 01:45:17.248 know , post call check or is it just a 01:45:17.248 --> 01:45:19.581 policy to do and it's just checked ? No , 01:45:19.581 --> 01:45:21.803 there's no , there's no physical record 01:45:21.803 --> 01:45:23.859 of it . It's just a policy and every 01:45:23.859 --> 01:45:26.081 fireman does it . Everybody knows , you 01:45:26.081 --> 01:45:28.248 know , um , you clean the saw blades , 01:45:28.248 --> 01:45:30.359 you check them after every use . Um , 01:45:30.359 --> 01:45:32.637 you check all your equipment that , um , 01:45:32.637 --> 01:45:34.803 you know , for when we're cutting cars 01:45:34.803 --> 01:45:36.970 open and stuff like that , every piece 01:45:36.970 --> 01:45:36.640 of equipment is checked multiple times 01:45:37.209 --> 01:45:39.320 with respect to , I guess , radios or 01:45:39.320 --> 01:45:41.487 radio communications . Are there any , 01:45:41.487 --> 01:45:43.598 um , you know , uh , check subsequent 01:45:43.598 --> 01:45:45.820 checks during the day prior to arriving 01:45:45.820 --> 01:45:48.229 at a sea ? Uh , no , but there is a 01:45:48.240 --> 01:45:50.073 radio check in the morning every 01:45:50.073 --> 01:45:53.799 morning at , uh , roughly between 01:45:53.810 --> 01:45:56.649 08 , 30 hours and 0 900 hours , uh , 01:45:56.660 --> 01:45:58.882 that comes from dispatch and they check 01:45:58.882 --> 01:46:01.049 every single company to make sure that 01:46:01.049 --> 01:46:03.216 the radios are working properly , uh , 01:46:03.216 --> 01:46:05.438 from the captain's radio to uh whatever 01:46:05.438 --> 01:46:07.660 radios all of the firefighters have and 01:46:07.660 --> 01:46:09.827 whatever other radio that may actually 01:46:09.827 --> 01:46:12.049 not be used that day that's locked away 01:46:12.049 --> 01:46:14.160 in the captain's office . Ok . Um And 01:46:14.160 --> 01:46:16.438 then I guess prior to entering a space , 01:46:16.438 --> 01:46:18.604 is there a radio check before ? Yeah , 01:46:18.604 --> 01:46:20.382 I uh the space is entered by uh 01:46:20.382 --> 01:46:23.259 firefighters . Uh No , there's not . Ok . 01:46:24.160 --> 01:46:26.327 Uh You mentioned earlier about the two 01:46:26.327 --> 01:46:28.729 into out rule . Um , we can surmise 01:46:28.740 --> 01:46:30.962 what that means , but can you , I guess 01:46:30.962 --> 01:46:32.962 explain that a little bit more what 01:46:32.962 --> 01:46:35.184 that is ? Uh , two firefighters enter a 01:46:35.184 --> 01:46:37.351 structure and two firefighters leave a 01:46:37.351 --> 01:46:39.629 structure . Ok . And now forgive me as , 01:46:39.629 --> 01:46:41.629 as attorneys and we like to dissect 01:46:41.629 --> 01:46:43.851 words as much as possible . Um But when 01:46:43.851 --> 01:46:45.907 you say enter a structure , when you 01:46:45.907 --> 01:46:48.018 say two in to enter , is that when it 01:46:48.018 --> 01:46:50.560 is do two , is that before entering , 01:46:50.569 --> 01:46:52.680 say a threshold for a structure or is 01:46:52.680 --> 01:46:54.680 it just in general to , to go in to 01:46:54.680 --> 01:46:57.850 come out ? Uh uh It would be prior to 01:46:57.859 --> 01:47:00.081 you entering the , the threshold of the 01:47:00.081 --> 01:47:02.192 structure . Um , but that's set up at 01:47:02.192 --> 01:47:04.669 the , at the curb . It's not , we don't 01:47:04.680 --> 01:47:06.791 wait till we get right to the door to 01:47:06.791 --> 01:47:08.902 say , ok , us two are going in , us , 01:47:08.902 --> 01:47:11.124 two are going out . But in terms of , I 01:47:11.124 --> 01:47:12.736 guess when , if you have two 01:47:12.736 --> 01:47:14.791 firefighters that are in right , and 01:47:14.791 --> 01:47:16.902 then two more are going to enter , do 01:47:16.902 --> 01:47:19.236 the , do the two who are going to enter , 01:47:19.236 --> 01:47:19.049 wait for the other two to actually come 01:47:19.060 --> 01:47:21.910 exit the threshold or is the transition 01:47:21.919 --> 01:47:24.339 inside ? That's what our uh team is , 01:47:24.350 --> 01:47:26.379 is there for the rapid intervention 01:47:26.390 --> 01:47:28.600 team is there to , to cover that . So 01:47:28.609 --> 01:47:30.498 if anything does happen to a fire 01:47:30.498 --> 01:47:32.770 firefighters going in , there is a team 01:47:32.779 --> 01:47:34.930 ready outside to go rescue those 01:47:34.939 --> 01:47:37.290 firefighters if anything happens . Ok . 01:47:37.299 --> 01:47:39.521 II I guess my question is just a little 01:47:39.521 --> 01:47:42.430 different in the sense of if you know , 01:47:42.439 --> 01:47:44.439 so you're with a , a team , another 01:47:44.439 --> 01:47:46.606 firefighter and you're gonna go in and 01:47:46.606 --> 01:47:46.270 there's two in and there's two 01:47:46.279 --> 01:47:48.390 firefighters already inside . Do they 01:47:48.390 --> 01:47:50.446 actually have to exit ? And I mean , 01:47:50.446 --> 01:47:52.612 cross the threshold out before you the 01:47:52.612 --> 01:47:54.779 next two enter in or can the two enter 01:47:54.779 --> 01:47:56.835 in and then shortly thereafter , the 01:47:56.835 --> 01:47:58.779 other two come out , no , multiple 01:47:58.779 --> 01:48:01.001 firefighters can enter the structure at 01:48:01.001 --> 01:48:03.223 the same time . What's covered in the , 01:48:03.223 --> 01:48:05.335 uh , the two in two out rule would be 01:48:05.335 --> 01:48:07.501 the fast team outside they would cover 01:48:07.501 --> 01:48:09.557 for any firefighter that has to come 01:48:09.557 --> 01:48:11.501 out or , or any firefighter that's 01:48:11.501 --> 01:48:13.723 injured inside . It's not , um , a rule 01:48:13.723 --> 01:48:15.668 where two firefighters enter , two 01:48:15.668 --> 01:48:17.223 firefighters leave two more 01:48:17.223 --> 01:48:18.779 firefighters enter two more 01:48:18.779 --> 01:48:21.001 firefighters . Ok . So what I was gonna 01:48:21.001 --> 01:48:23.057 get at is in terms of the next thing 01:48:23.057 --> 01:48:25.223 when you're entering deck 10 , I guess 01:48:25.223 --> 01:48:27.390 where the transitions occurred where , 01:48:27.390 --> 01:48:29.612 when you , when the team switched off , 01:48:29.612 --> 01:48:31.779 was it , you know , you have , we have 01:48:31.779 --> 01:48:31.490 the stairwell that comes down from , 01:48:31.500 --> 01:48:33.556 you know , the portside stairwell or 01:48:33.556 --> 01:48:35.667 ladder , well , as you call it , um , 01:48:35.667 --> 01:48:37.833 and then there's the bulkhead door and 01:48:37.833 --> 01:48:37.640 then there's the cargo hold . Was the 01:48:37.649 --> 01:48:39.816 transitions in the cargo hold or was , 01:48:39.816 --> 01:48:41.927 were the transitions in the stairwell 01:48:41.927 --> 01:48:44.370 transitions in the stairwell ? Ok . So 01:48:44.759 --> 01:48:47.870 at no point . So now let's go 01:48:47.879 --> 01:48:50.500 specifically when you entered with , uh , 01:48:50.509 --> 01:48:54.330 Captain Brooks , uh , engine 20 01:48:54.709 --> 01:48:57.330 it was , was it engine 27 coming out or 01:48:57.339 --> 01:48:59.506 was this , um , firefighter ? Silver , 01:48:59.506 --> 01:49:01.839 the silver and soda coming out . It was , 01:49:01.839 --> 01:49:03.895 uh , two members from men 27 and two 01:49:03.895 --> 01:49:06.061 members from my company LA four . Ok . 01:49:06.061 --> 01:49:09.680 So , um , so all four of them came out 01:49:09.689 --> 01:49:11.911 of the cargo hold were in the , were in 01:49:11.911 --> 01:49:14.078 the stairwell and then you and Captain 01:49:14.078 --> 01:49:16.709 Brooks walked in . Yes . Ok . And when 01:49:16.720 --> 01:49:19.379 you , at that point in time , where was , 01:49:19.390 --> 01:49:21.668 um , Bat Chief Mariska , was he in the , 01:49:21.668 --> 01:49:23.723 was he in the stairwell or was he in 01:49:23.723 --> 01:49:25.446 the cargo hold ? He was in the 01:49:25.446 --> 01:49:25.439 stairwell outside the bulkhead door ? 01:49:25.450 --> 01:49:27.728 Nailing him and he had , and there was , 01:49:27.728 --> 01:49:29.506 I believe I was it one or two , 01:49:29.506 --> 01:49:31.506 probationary firefighters were also 01:49:31.506 --> 01:49:33.339 with him . I remember seeing one 01:49:33.339 --> 01:49:35.228 probationary firefighter that was 01:49:35.228 --> 01:49:37.006 kneeling behind him and another 01:49:37.006 --> 01:49:39.172 firefighter , but I don't know if that 01:49:39.172 --> 01:49:39.029 was probationary firefighter or just 01:49:39.040 --> 01:49:41.262 another firefighter that was there with 01:49:41.262 --> 01:49:43.596 him and Mr Bale . Uh less than a minute . 01:49:43.596 --> 01:49:46.359 No . Ok . Um And then so you obviously 01:49:46.370 --> 01:49:49.229 go into the space with a fire . Captain 01:49:49.240 --> 01:49:52.759 Brooks was the same when you transition 01:49:52.770 --> 01:49:54.714 and engine 16 came in with Captain 01:49:54.714 --> 01:49:56.720 Roberto , um , and the other 01:49:56.729 --> 01:49:59.160 firefighter holding for his name a 01:49:59.169 --> 01:50:02.569 second or , or uh Captain Aku did the 01:50:02.580 --> 01:50:04.802 transition . Did you guys transition in 01:50:04.802 --> 01:50:06.858 the um , in the stairwell as well or 01:50:06.858 --> 01:50:09.549 did you transition in the cargo hold ? 01:50:09.560 --> 01:50:11.560 There was no transition . They were 01:50:11.560 --> 01:50:13.727 supposed to be part of our team . Ok . 01:50:13.910 --> 01:50:17.220 Ok . Uh , when you , um went to 01:50:17.229 --> 01:50:20.560 leave , um , he said , um , Captain 01:50:20.569 --> 01:50:22.629 Brooks is still on the line . Uh Did 01:50:22.640 --> 01:50:24.862 you have any verbal communications with 01:50:24.862 --> 01:50:27.029 Captain Brooks that you were leaving ? 01:50:27.029 --> 01:50:29.270 Yes . Ok . And , uh , I , I handed him 01:50:29.279 --> 01:50:31.446 my , uh , thermal imaging camera and I 01:50:31.446 --> 01:50:33.612 told him that I was gonna be returning 01:50:33.612 --> 01:50:35.779 to the battalion chief to let him know 01:50:35.779 --> 01:50:37.946 what the conditions were to get orders 01:50:37.946 --> 01:50:37.470 and then take everything from there . 01:50:37.750 --> 01:50:39.917 And that's because your radios weren't 01:50:39.917 --> 01:50:42.028 working . That's correct . And did he 01:50:42.028 --> 01:50:44.083 ever try on his radio or was it just 01:50:44.083 --> 01:50:46.028 your radio ? Uh I don't know if he 01:50:46.028 --> 01:50:48.083 tried on his radio , I was generally 01:50:48.083 --> 01:50:50.250 the fireman won't use the radio if the 01:50:50.250 --> 01:50:52.361 captain's there . Ok . Uh , and how , 01:50:52.361 --> 01:50:54.361 and at that point in time , did you 01:50:54.361 --> 01:50:56.250 already made contact with engines 01:50:56.250 --> 01:50:58.583 members of engine 16 at that point , or , 01:50:58.583 --> 01:51:00.806 or not ? Yes , we had made contact with 01:51:00.806 --> 01:51:00.290 engine 16 at that point . Ok . And 01:51:00.299 --> 01:51:02.299 approximately how far away , or how 01:51:02.299 --> 01:51:04.355 close were they to you , uh , to you 01:51:04.355 --> 01:51:06.410 and Captain Brooks when they , uh at 01:51:06.410 --> 01:51:08.743 that time , they were right to my right , 01:51:08.743 --> 01:51:10.910 right . They were , they were standing 01:51:10.910 --> 01:51:13.021 right next to us . Ok . And Mr Pele , 01:51:13.021 --> 01:51:15.355 uh just one more question , please . No . 01:51:15.355 --> 01:51:18.009 Ok , no problem . Um You , you 01:51:18.020 --> 01:51:20.131 mentioned earlier that on the thermal 01:51:20.131 --> 01:51:22.298 imaging camera , you thought you saw a 01:51:22.298 --> 01:51:24.242 potential another code line on the 01:51:24.242 --> 01:51:27.640 ground . Uh Yes , behind us . Ok . Um 01:51:28.569 --> 01:51:30.291 I hate to do this to , to your 01:51:30.291 --> 01:51:32.513 commander , but could we possibly bring 01:51:32.513 --> 01:51:34.347 up exhibit seven and see if , if 01:51:34.347 --> 01:51:36.513 there's a possible way to locate where 01:51:36.513 --> 01:51:38.680 he may , where he believes he saw that 01:51:39.560 --> 01:51:43.430 actually . Yes . Yeah , we can , we can 01:51:43.439 --> 01:51:45.328 do that as the , the last line of 01:51:45.328 --> 01:51:47.439 question there . That works perfect . 01:51:47.439 --> 01:51:49.661 Yeah . All right . Uh Lieutenant Reid , 01:51:49.661 --> 01:51:51.828 if you could bring up uh exhibit seven 01:51:51.828 --> 01:51:53.383 B , it should be page one . 01:52:04.839 --> 01:52:06.895 All right . And I guess , uh Captain 01:52:06.895 --> 01:52:09.117 Rogers , I guess , I guess , you know , 01:52:09.117 --> 01:52:11.339 I guess , start where I guess where you 01:52:11.339 --> 01:52:13.561 were and then , you know , from there , 01:52:13.561 --> 01:52:15.783 move it to I guess where you , uh , you 01:52:15.783 --> 01:52:18.006 saw this line ? All right , I would say 01:52:18.006 --> 01:52:20.228 probably it was where 20 years , that's 01:52:20.228 --> 01:52:22.395 where we were roughly . I would say it 01:52:22.395 --> 01:52:24.709 was probably around , around the 30 01:52:24.720 --> 01:52:28.250 mark , maybe 35 . Ok . 01:52:30.140 --> 01:52:32.362 Ok . Was it directly in front of you or 01:52:32.362 --> 01:52:35.770 was it towards the house ? It was ok . 01:52:37.700 --> 01:52:39.978 But now I answer your question . Sorry , 01:52:40.330 --> 01:52:42.552 and I , I'm sorry , Captain . Uh , this 01:52:42.552 --> 01:52:44.608 is Commander Barger . Uh , was it in 01:52:44.608 --> 01:52:47.990 the center of the space where 01:52:48.000 --> 01:52:49.944 Lieutenant Reid's cursor is on the 01:52:49.944 --> 01:52:52.056 screen or was it , or to starboard or 01:52:52.060 --> 01:52:54.282 more to port ? No , I believe it was in 01:52:54.282 --> 01:52:56.282 the center of the following roughly 01:52:56.282 --> 01:52:58.393 where that line is , but I'm not sure 01:52:58.393 --> 01:53:00.560 if that was actually a hose line or if 01:53:00.560 --> 01:53:02.560 it was something else in the ship , 01:53:02.560 --> 01:53:02.549 there was , it was a very straight line 01:53:02.560 --> 01:53:06.439 that was cold . Ok . Thank you . Ok . 01:53:07.959 --> 01:53:11.259 See , uh , if I told you that , um , 01:53:11.270 --> 01:53:13.470 the ship's crew had been using hand 01:53:13.479 --> 01:53:16.220 lines , um , prior , you know , prior 01:53:16.229 --> 01:53:18.173 to , you know , emergency services 01:53:18.173 --> 01:53:20.340 dispatched and whatnot , um , to fight 01:53:20.340 --> 01:53:22.562 the fire then , would that , could that 01:53:22.562 --> 01:53:24.785 line be consistent with , I guess hoses 01:53:24.785 --> 01:53:26.618 being used on the deck prior ? I 01:53:26.618 --> 01:53:28.840 wouldn't know , I wouldn't know because 01:53:28.840 --> 01:53:30.896 I wouldn't know where they hooked up 01:53:30.896 --> 01:53:32.951 from and came in from . Ok . Right . 01:53:32.951 --> 01:53:35.173 Right . Ok . Ok . Thank you , captain . 01:53:35.173 --> 01:53:37.507 I appreciate it . Thank you , Commander . 01:53:37.507 --> 01:53:40.859 You're welcome . Ok . Uh , are there 01:53:40.870 --> 01:53:43.279 any other questions from members of the 01:53:43.290 --> 01:53:44.457 investigation team . 01:53:51.160 --> 01:53:53.382 Ok . None heard , uh , Captain , I just 01:53:53.382 --> 01:53:55.500 have one last question for you . Um , 01:53:55.529 --> 01:53:59.459 when you left deck 10 , uh , to 01:53:59.470 --> 01:54:01.470 go over and communicate with , uh , 01:54:01.720 --> 01:54:04.450 Italian Chief Maresca . What was your 01:54:04.459 --> 01:54:08.410 air supply like ? At that point ? I had 01:54:08.419 --> 01:54:10.641 a little more than a half a tank left . 01:54:12.669 --> 01:54:15.779 All right . Thank you . All right . Uh , 01:54:15.790 --> 01:54:18.100 Captain Rogers , uh , thank you for 01:54:18.109 --> 01:54:20.165 your time and testimony today . Uh , 01:54:20.165 --> 01:54:22.649 you are subject to recall . Uh And my 01:54:22.660 --> 01:54:24.604 sequestration order will remain in 01:54:24.604 --> 01:54:26.327 place until you're notified by 01:54:26.327 --> 01:54:28.438 Lieutenant Reid , our recorder , um , 01:54:28.438 --> 01:54:30.790 that you're re released from uh these 01:54:30.799 --> 01:54:33.879 proceedings . And in that order , uh at 01:54:34.430 --> 01:54:36.569 this time , the hearing uh will be in 01:54:36.580 --> 01:54:39.040 recess and will remain in recess until 01:54:39.049 --> 01:54:42.890 Friday , February 2nd 2024 at 9 a.m. 01:54:42.899 --> 01:54:45.580 Eastern Standard Time . Uh And at that 01:54:45.589 --> 01:54:47.589 time , we'll reconvene and call our 01:54:47.589 --> 01:54:49.700 next wit witness virtually uh through 01:54:49.700 --> 01:54:52.009 Microsoft teams uh for that session as 01:54:52.020 --> 01:54:54.353 well . All right . Thank you . And , uh , 01:54:54.353 --> 01:54:55.689 we will end , end the recording now .