WEBVTT

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a quote , preamble , whatever that

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means unquote in your remarks before

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you get to your actual question .

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entirely and then rejoin if they return

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members . Air also advised that I've

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designated a committee staff member to

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have necessary you unrecognized members

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technical or logistical support issues .

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Finally , remotely participating

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members should see a five minute

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countdown clock on the software's

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platform display . But if necessary , I

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will gently remind members when their

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time is up . So welcome everyone .

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Today we will be focusing on

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racial disparity in the military

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justice system . We're here to discuss

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the inequalities and injustices that

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people of color experience in the

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military justice system , including

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those in criminal investigations ,

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courts martial and nonjudicial

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punishment . The fact that we live in a

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country with ingrained racial bias in

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no way excuses or justifies the

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perpetuation of racism in the United

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States military . Our service members

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commit their lives to protect our

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country . We must commit ourselves to

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ensure that the military treats service

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members of color , equally and justly .

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We will not solve this problem by

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hiding it or denying it . We will not

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solve this problem , pretending that it

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is solely the result of uncontrollable

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societal problems by pretending that

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our actions do not contribute to the

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continuation of injustice by refusing

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to seek change . Because we are so

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comfortable and confident in quote the

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ways things have always been done

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unquote , the way things have always

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been done is wrong . The results

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are repugnant . I hope that all our

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military leaders in the room are

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prepared to acknowledge the need for a

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reckoning and prepared further to

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institute bold measures to fix the

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inherent bias in the military justice

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system in America . G A owes Most

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recent report found that black service

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members were more likely to be the

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subject of recorded investigations and

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more likely to be tried in general and

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special courts martial than their white

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counterparts . Importantly , Joo found

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that the results were statistically

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significant . Racial data on

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nonjudicial punishment was not

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uniformly collected . Protect our

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defenders in their investigation found

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that Black airman were twice as likely

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to face nonjudicial punishment than

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white airman . If history provides us

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some solace , the military led the way

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in integrating our black service

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members long before schools or lunch

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counters were integrated . In 1948

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President Truman signed Executive Order

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99 81 directing equal trip treatment

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for our black service members in the

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military . Subsequently , the Army ,

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Navy , Air Force and Marine Corps

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complied . Quote . In 1949 the Air

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Force issued a quote Bill of Rights for

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Black Airman and the Navy propose a

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recruiting program to enlist black

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sailors . The Marine Corps eliminated

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its segregated training platoons and

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various post facilities unquote .

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But integration did not

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equal acceptance . Racism and

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discrimination , both personal and

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institutional , continued People of

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color who wish to make a career in our

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military have face uphill fight , and

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we've done too little to assess them .

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72 years after integration , the fight

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for equality and justice continues . We

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still struggle to carve out an equal

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place for people of color struggle to

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ensure they have the same opportunities

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to serve in advance in their careers

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and struggle to ensure them equal

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justice . We have to look no further

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than the military leaders in this

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country , almost exclusively white men .

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It was heartening to note that General

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Charles Brown has become the Air Force

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chief of staff just this week but 72

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years . I would like to hear the first

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panel what needs to change , what needs

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to be done to bring transparency to the

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system and ensure accountability for

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every commander who uses the military

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justice system in a biased and

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discriminatory manner . For the second

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panel , I would like to hear how , as

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the senior military lawyer for each

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service , you could educate leaders at

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all levels to recognize bias in the

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military justice system and what you

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can do to ensure that justice is

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dispensed fairly and consistently .

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Before I introduce our first panel ,

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let me offer ranking member Kelly an

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opportunity to make his opening remarks .

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Thank you , Chairwoman Sphere , and

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thank the witnesses for being here

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tomorrow . Thank you for holding this

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hearing at such a fitting time as

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Americans across this country of all

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backgrounds are struggling to better

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understand racial disparity across

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society at large and detect substantive

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actions that actually make a difference .

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This is a fitting time to have this

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year . I want to welcome both of our

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panels to the days here . We appreciate

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your attention and commitment to remedy

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a very grave problem that , if left

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unchecked , could stand undermined the

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readiness of our armed forces . Racial

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disparity is a very riel societal

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problem , and across various criminal

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justice system , we see lopsided rights

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of arrest , prosecution , incarceration

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that could should concern every

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American . This country has struggled

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to confront and fix that problem for

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decades , and we continue to do so .

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But as the events of the last several

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weeks demonstrate , we have a long way

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to go as a former district attorney and

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city prosecutor , I've seen my share of

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it , and there's something neither I

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nor any of us can ever shy away from or

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get complacent about . This is a

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problem . We all collectively nature ,

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confront it head on . Where do I think

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we can and must make ? A very real

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difference is in our military . I've

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served in the military for over 33

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years , commander of the battalion and

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brigade levels , and I know the very

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real bond our young warriors share ,

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regardless of background . I was very

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proud two weeks ago when 371 soldiers

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from Mississippi in the 155 Armored

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Brigade Combat Team . All volunteers

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answered the call and deployed to

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Washington for the civil unrest on

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three hours notice . They were a very

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diverse group , with 43% from either

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African American or minority

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backgrounds . They trained together .

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They deployed together , and they did

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their duty as a team together , which

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is what makes our military so great .

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They answered the call , Did that what

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they were asked to do , and they did it

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with honor and integrity . They and all

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service members place their trust in

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each other and their laters . And that

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is why our military is so formidable .

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This isn't contacts that lays a bit of

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the foundation for what makes it

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suspected and military justice so

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troubling . For May , leaders need to

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do the right thing . Always treat every

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soldier , sailor , airman and Marine

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with dignity and respect , and protect

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that trust that binds warriors together .

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If racial disparity persists , it

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always has a negative impact on

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recruiting readiness and the culture of

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our military . Understand , that's just

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statistics the effect . But what we

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needed to understand is the cause

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fashion , the right remedies , and we

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need to do it quickly . Section 54 1 of

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the F Y 2020 Indy A task the second

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half in consultation with the services

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to evaluate the causes of racial ,

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ethnic and gender disparities in the

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military Justice is , um , and to take

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steps to remedy disparities . I'm

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interested in hearing from eye

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witnesses today on any ideas for

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rooting out the cause of this problem

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and potential solutions and where the

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department is in their evaluation of

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colleges and remedies . Understand the

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Air Force's initiating an inspector

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general investigation with panels of

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experts and support to explore the

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problem or holistically . I'm

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interested in hearing from all the

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services about any similar or

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complementary initiatives . I do know

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that the space force is not here today

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and is a new force . I think they have

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a chance to get it right from the start .

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They can be groundbreaking and ground

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setting because they start from zero .

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Madam Chairwoman . I think this is a

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great start . I look forward to the

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day's discussion . I want again thank

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the witness for attending today's

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hearing and share their collective

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expertise with us and I yield back .

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Thank you , Mr Kelly each witness will

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have the opportunity presented her

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testimony , and each member will have

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an opportunity to question the

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witnesses for five minutes . We

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respectfully ask the witnesses to

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summarize their testimony in five

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minutes . Your written comments and

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statements will be made part of the

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hearing record . I ask unanimous

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consent that non subcommittee members

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be allowed to participate and ask

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questions . After all , the

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subcommittee members have had the

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opportunity to ask questions without

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objection so ordered . Let me welcome

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our first panel . Tired Colonel Don

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Christiansen , president of Protect Our

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Defenders , and Miss Brenda Farrell ,

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director of defense capabilities and

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management team of the U . S .

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Government Accountability Office . This

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Farrell is joining us . The WebEx

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welcome . All right , let

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us begin with Colonel Christiansen

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to Roman Spear ranking member Kelly

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distinguished members of the

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subcommittee Thank you for the

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opportunity to appear before you to

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examine the issue of racial disparities

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in the military justice system . Like

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our country , the military has a long

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and painful history of mistreating

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racial minorities . Black service

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members have continued to be prosecuted

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and punished at a much greater rate

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than white counterparts . Moreover ,

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the suffered promotion rates in our

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vast they suffered . Lower promotion

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rates are vastly underrepresented in

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the Officer corps , especially at the

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general and flag officer ranks , as

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part of Protect Our Defenders ongoing

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efforts to improve the fairness of the

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military justice system . In 2016 we

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found a Siris of Freedom Information

11:52.740 --> 11:55.870
Act request to each service seeking 10

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years of data on the racial disparities

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in the military justice process . The

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data was provided to us and rates per

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1000 . After eventual receiving the

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data , we released a study of our

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finance in June of 2017 that showed

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widespread racial disparities and all

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of the services . We examined a total

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of 32 years of data , and in every

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single year , black service members

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were punished at a significantly higher

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rate than White Service members . Based

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on our findings , Congress mandated a

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Government Accountability office

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revealed the disparities , which was

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completed in March of 2019 . The jail

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also found significant racial

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disparities , but most shockingly , the

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G a O found that none of the services

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had done anything to find the causes or

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solutions for disparities . As part of

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its answer to our 16 2004 requests the

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Air Force stated it had created Quote a

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cross functional team led by diversity

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Inclusion experts in quote to quote ,

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collect and analyze the data and

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recommend policy changes process

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modifications are additional study is

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appropriate . In July 2017 we

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founded additional FOI requests seeking

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the identities and the qualifications

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of the team members , as well as the

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team's findings and recommendations .

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In addition to other information , this

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was the start of a grueling three year

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long struggle to force the Air Force to

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meet its FOI obligations . Thankfully ,

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we were represented by the L Veterans

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Legal Services Clinic , which enabled

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us to file suit in federal court .

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Despite numerous efforts by the Air

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Force to conceal its findings and

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recommendations of the team a federal

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judge eventually ordered the Air Force

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disclosed requested documents under the

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threat of sanctions . The documents we

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receive are startling . The panel and

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fall up study by Air Force Manpower or

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a one found that the racial disparities

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were quote consistent and persistent

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and getting worse . Air Force admitted

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that the numbers work unquote

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concerning and the importance of having

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quote equitable and consistent

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disciplinary processes . The's finance

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were made in 2000 and 16 . And despite

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concluding that the that the Air Force

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quote must clearly address the

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disparity in some way quote unquote ,

14:20.510 --> 14:22.830
the Air Force appeared to act on the

14:22.830 --> 14:24.997
team's recommendations and address the

14:24.997 --> 14:28.080
issues . Another disturbing finding

14:28.080 --> 14:30.136
viral review of the documents is the

14:30.136 --> 14:32.330
Air Force Legal Community's efforts to

14:32.330 --> 14:34.730
discredit the data is showing their own

14:34.730 --> 14:36.560
data showing significant racial

14:36.560 --> 14:39.100
disparities . Despite the strong

14:39.100 --> 14:42.710
conclusions of a one , J has attempted

14:42.710 --> 14:44.932
to discredit the importance of the data

14:45.190 --> 14:47.260
specifically in the background paper

14:47.260 --> 14:50.990
that Jay created in 2016 . They claimed

14:50.990 --> 14:53.320
that the disparity between blacks and

14:53.320 --> 14:56.120
whites that are punish convey result of

14:56.120 --> 14:58.490
a small number of additional actions .

14:59.010 --> 15:01.010
Lieutenant General Rock , World Air

15:01.010 --> 15:03.232
Force judge advocate general reinforces

15:03.232 --> 15:05.343
message recently in a briefing to the

15:05.343 --> 15:07.540
Air Force four stars where , he told

15:07.540 --> 15:09.500
them , Quote even a few additional

15:09.500 --> 15:11.790
disciplinary actions have a far greater

15:11.790 --> 15:14.100
impact on the report rate for 1000 for

15:14.100 --> 15:16.330
Black your women end quote . Due to

15:16.330 --> 15:18.840
their smaller number , General Rockwell

15:18.840 --> 15:20.507
didn't want onto misleadingly

15:20.507 --> 15:22.740
illustrate this point by using a racial

15:22.740 --> 15:25.420
of 10 to 1 of white airman to black

15:25.430 --> 15:28.360
German rather than the actual rate of 5

15:28.360 --> 15:31.480
to 1 . The idea that the decades long

15:31.480 --> 15:33.750
disparity can be explained by a few

15:33.750 --> 15:35.694
additional disciplinary actions is

15:35.694 --> 15:38.400
fault , and J . A needs to stop this

15:38.400 --> 15:41.000
line of argument . The disparity and

15:41.000 --> 15:43.860
nonjudicial punishments in Calendar 19

15:43.860 --> 15:46.460
and Air Force alone represents an

15:46.460 --> 15:49.950
additional 520 Article 15 for Black

15:49.950 --> 15:52.450
Airman , not an additional few , as

15:52.450 --> 15:55.270
implied by by the legal world . In

15:55.280 --> 15:57.400
other words , Black Aerbin received

15:57.400 --> 16:00.500
approximately 1105 article fifteens

16:00.500 --> 16:02.880
last year . If they were punished at

16:02.880 --> 16:04.940
the same proportional rate of White

16:04.950 --> 16:07.117
Airman , they would have only received

16:07.117 --> 16:10.810
585 . The impact racial disparities

16:10.810 --> 16:13.530
across all the services in the last 10

16:13.530 --> 16:15.680
years would easily be in excess of

16:15.690 --> 16:18.680
10,000 additional extra punishments .

16:18.680 --> 16:20.910
Met it out against black airmen are

16:20.910 --> 16:23.760
black service members , not a few

16:23.760 --> 16:26.740
additional actions . Air Force needs to

16:26.740 --> 16:29.860
focus on flaming solutions and causes ,

16:30.030 --> 16:32.200
not discrediting the significance of

16:32.200 --> 16:34.810
its own data . Were you released a

16:34.810 --> 16:37.240
report in May 26 of this year and it

16:37.240 --> 16:39.570
had an immediate impact . My credit

16:39.570 --> 16:41.848
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force ,

16:41.848 --> 16:43.903
right in General Goldfein for acting

16:43.903 --> 16:46.070
quickly by ordering an investigation .

16:46.070 --> 16:48.180
But what must not be forgetting for

16:48.180 --> 16:50.291
gotten is the action initiated by the

16:50.291 --> 16:52.236
Air Force last week to investigate

16:52.236 --> 16:54.910
disparities would not have occurred if

16:54.910 --> 16:56.910
they had been successful in keeping

16:56.910 --> 16:59.132
this information from being disclosed .

16:59.320 --> 17:01.680
This hearing today would not have been

17:01.680 --> 17:04.400
held , but for the fact we were willing

17:04.400 --> 17:06.410
to force the Air Force to disclose

17:06.410 --> 17:08.630
damning information that it wished to

17:08.630 --> 17:11.110
keep hidden . This is a reminder of the

17:11.110 --> 17:13.490
importance of transparency and why the

17:13.490 --> 17:16.300
military must faithfully meet its Floyd

17:16.310 --> 17:19.040
obligations . How much further could

17:19.040 --> 17:21.020
the Air Force be in addressing the

17:21.020 --> 17:23.076
racial disparities of it had put the

17:23.076 --> 17:25.730
energy into finding solutions in 2000

17:25.730 --> 17:28.500
and 16 . Rather than seeking to cover

17:28.500 --> 17:30.860
up its embarrassing failures , I look

17:30.860 --> 17:33.082
forward to any questions you may have .

17:57.640 --> 18:00.730
All right now we are going to hear from

18:00.980 --> 18:03.650
Miss Brenda Farrell from the G , a O

18:03.650 --> 18:06.780
that has recently provided the

18:07.070 --> 18:10.990
report This Farrell Thank

18:10.990 --> 18:13.212
you , Madam Chairwoman , ranking member

18:13.212 --> 18:15.323
Kelly and members of the subcommittee

18:15.323 --> 18:17.157
Thank you for the opportunity to

18:17.157 --> 18:18.712
discuss jails . Findings to

18:18.712 --> 18:20.323
recommendations about racial

18:20.323 --> 18:22.323
disparities in the military justice

18:22.323 --> 18:24.434
system , the Uniform Code of Military

18:24.434 --> 18:27.330
Justice , the UCMJ A was established to

18:27.330 --> 18:29.497
provide the statutory framework of the

18:29.497 --> 18:31.810
military justice system . It contains

18:31.810 --> 18:33.754
articles that punished traditional

18:33.754 --> 18:36.310
crimes such as unlawful drug use , an

18:36.310 --> 18:39.120
assault as well as unique military

18:39.120 --> 18:42.230
offenses , including desertion . Every

18:42.230 --> 18:44.570
active duty service member of the Army ,

18:44.580 --> 18:46.691
the Navy , the Marine Corps , the Air

18:46.691 --> 18:49.010
Force and the Coast Guard are subject

18:49.010 --> 18:51.270
to the UCMJ A , with more than

18:51.270 --> 18:55.210
258,000 individuals . Discipline

18:55.330 --> 18:58.430
from fiscal years 2013 through

18:58.620 --> 19:02.530
2017 . A key principle of the UCMJ

19:02.530 --> 19:05.530
A is that a fair and just system of

19:05.530 --> 19:08.220
military law can foster a highly

19:08.220 --> 19:10.810
disciplined force . My statement is

19:10.810 --> 19:13.850
based on our report issued in May 2019

19:14.240 --> 19:17.020
on the military services capabilities

19:17.190 --> 19:19.350
to assess racial disparities , among

19:19.350 --> 19:21.280
other matters . Let me briefly

19:21.280 --> 19:23.530
summarize my written statement . My

19:23.530 --> 19:25.760
statement is divided into three parts .

19:26.020 --> 19:28.242
The first part addresses the collection

19:28.242 --> 19:30.950
of race and ethnic group information in

19:30.950 --> 19:33.530
the military services , investigations ,

19:33.740 --> 19:36.350
Military Justice and Personnel Database

19:36.350 --> 19:39.110
is among our findings . We found that

19:39.110 --> 19:40.950
the services did not collect

19:41.040 --> 19:43.710
information about race and ethnic group

19:43.840 --> 19:46.900
and these databases . Thus they were

19:46.900 --> 19:49.270
limited in their ability to identify

19:49.270 --> 19:51.720
disparities , which are instances in

19:51.720 --> 19:53.950
which , in racial or ethnic group , was

19:53.950 --> 19:57.270
overrepresented specifically the number

19:57.270 --> 19:59.470
of potential responses for race and

19:59.470 --> 20:02.020
ethnic group within the 15 databases

20:02.020 --> 20:05.800
across the services ranges from 5 to 32

20:05.800 --> 20:09.420
options for race and 2 to 25 options

20:09.420 --> 20:12.190
for ethnic group , which can complicate

20:12.190 --> 20:15.400
cross service assessments . To address

20:15.400 --> 20:17.178
these inconsistencies , we made

20:17.178 --> 20:19.910
recommendations to do D and DHS , the

20:19.910 --> 20:22.243
parent organization for the Coast Guard ,

20:22.243 --> 20:25.200
to collect and maintain race and ethnic

20:25.200 --> 20:27.530
information in the investigative and

20:27.530 --> 20:30.480
personnel databases using the same

20:30.480 --> 20:33.030
categories recently established in the

20:33.030 --> 20:34.980
Uniform standards for the military

20:34.980 --> 20:38.410
justice databases do . De and DHS

20:38.410 --> 20:40.577
concurred with these recommendations .

20:40.880 --> 20:42.658
The second part of my statement

20:42.658 --> 20:44.590
addresses the extent of racial

20:44.590 --> 20:46.480
disparities , investigations ,

20:46.780 --> 20:49.300
disciplinary actions and outcomes .

20:49.740 --> 20:52.770
Since the services did not collect race

20:52.770 --> 20:55.810
and ethnic group data consistently , we

20:55.810 --> 20:58.920
analyzed actions initiated and recorded

20:59.140 --> 21:01.370
in each services , investigations ,

21:01.370 --> 21:03.100
military justice and personnel

21:03.100 --> 21:05.740
databases between the years physical

21:05.740 --> 21:09.680
years 2013 through 2017 . To help

21:09.680 --> 21:11.850
ensure we had consistent profiles for

21:11.850 --> 21:14.390
service members , we emerged records

21:14.390 --> 21:17.260
using unique identifiers such as Social

21:17.260 --> 21:19.610
Security numbers that were common among

21:19.610 --> 21:21.640
the military services database .

21:27.340 --> 21:29.450
We used all of these standards to

21:29.450 --> 21:31.770
consolidate the various race and ethnic

21:31.770 --> 21:34.410
values . We conducted multi variant

21:34.420 --> 21:36.620
regression analyses to test the

21:36.620 --> 21:39.000
association between a service member's

21:39.000 --> 21:41.500
characteristics such as race and ethnic

21:41.500 --> 21:43.960
group and the odds of military justice

21:43.960 --> 21:46.290
action . By using this approach with

21:46.290 --> 21:48.170
available data , we found an

21:48.170 --> 21:51.220
association of a disparity at stages of

21:51.220 --> 21:53.450
the military justice process . But

21:53.450 --> 21:55.740
findings are inconclusive regarding

21:55.750 --> 21:58.700
other stages . For example , we found

21:58.700 --> 22:00.700
the Black service members were more

22:00.700 --> 22:02.922
likely than White Service members to be

22:02.922 --> 22:05.089
subjects of recorded investigations in

22:05.089 --> 22:07.089
the military criminal investigative

22:07.089 --> 22:09.720
databases in all of the services .

22:09.820 --> 22:11.876
Further , Black Service members were

22:11.876 --> 22:14.098
more likely than whites service members

22:14.098 --> 22:16.042
to be tried in general and special

22:16.042 --> 22:18.264
court martials in the Army , the Navy ,

22:18.264 --> 22:20.264
the Marine Corps and the airports .

22:20.264 --> 22:22.042
Data for the Coast Guard is not

22:22.042 --> 22:23.820
available . The last part of my

22:23.820 --> 22:25.876
statement addresses you d Evaluating

22:25.876 --> 22:28.140
the causes of disparities , we found

22:28.140 --> 22:30.029
that duty has not comprehensively

22:30.029 --> 22:31.770
evaluated the causes of racial

22:31.770 --> 22:33.770
disparities in the military justice

22:33.770 --> 22:36.240
system . We recommended that they do so

22:36.420 --> 22:38.460
to better position them to identify

22:38.460 --> 22:41.500
actions to address the spirits duty ,

22:41.500 --> 22:43.760
concurred Madam chairwoman . In

22:43.760 --> 22:45.816
conclusion , we believe that for the

22:45.816 --> 22:47.538
system of military law , to be

22:47.538 --> 22:50.020
recognized is fair and just by both

22:50.020 --> 22:52.060
service members and by the American

22:52.060 --> 22:55.210
public duty and DHS need to take

22:55.220 --> 22:56.609
actions to implement the

22:56.609 --> 22:59.660
recommendations in our May 2019 report .

22:59.980 --> 23:02.091
That concludes my statement . I'll be

23:02.091 --> 23:04.313
pleased to take questions that you were

23:04.313 --> 23:06.647
the others made 1/2 Cerrell . Thank you .

23:06.647 --> 23:08.850
You did it with eight seconds to , um

23:10.140 --> 23:13.500
left . So let us start with the Colonel

23:13.500 --> 23:16.330
Christenson . You know , I was stunned

23:16.330 --> 23:19.630
in reading the report that you found

23:19.630 --> 23:22.810
that in the Air Force , a black service

23:22.810 --> 23:26.320
member was 71% more likely

23:27.180 --> 23:30.970
to be charged for nonjudicial

23:30.970 --> 23:33.190
punishment , I believe for court

23:33.190 --> 23:35.301
martials or non judicial punishment .

23:35.670 --> 23:38.070
And the army , it was 61% in the Navy ,

23:38.070 --> 23:40.420
it was 40% more likely . And the Marine

23:40.420 --> 23:43.340
court was 32% more likely . So clearly

23:43.340 --> 23:47.270
the Air Force is the grossest outlier .

23:47.280 --> 23:49.560
Although they all appear tohave

23:50.840 --> 23:54.150
statistics that there , um ,

23:54.630 --> 23:58.420
high degree of bias . It appears to me

23:58.420 --> 24:01.260
that you had to work very hard to get

24:01.260 --> 24:04.150
that FOIA request . Complied with . How

24:04.150 --> 24:06.140
much time did it take for you to

24:06.150 --> 24:08.317
actually get that information from the

24:08.317 --> 24:10.594
airport ? Well , that's great question .

24:10.600 --> 24:12.933
So there were two separate FOI requests .

24:12.933 --> 24:15.044
The 1st 1 where he just asked for the

24:15.044 --> 24:17.440
raw data we got fairly quickly . Their

24:17.440 --> 24:19.551
force answered , I believe , within a

24:19.551 --> 24:21.773
month just raw data . But in that first

24:21.773 --> 24:23.440
Roy request , they talk about

24:23.440 --> 24:25.607
establishing this disparity panel that

24:25.610 --> 24:27.777
I thought a great they're really gonna

24:27.777 --> 24:29.666
look at this . And when we didn't

24:29.666 --> 24:31.721
follow up , that was It's been three

24:31.721 --> 24:33.943
years since we filed that fly request ,

24:33.943 --> 24:35.832
and we still have not got all the

24:35.832 --> 24:37.721
documents that we requested . For

24:37.721 --> 24:39.610
example , I have no idea what the

24:39.610 --> 24:41.666
qualifications of a single person on

24:41.666 --> 24:44.240
that panel were . Uh and we had to go

24:44.240 --> 24:46.930
to federal court . We filed suit in

24:46.930 --> 24:50.810
December of 2017 . We

24:50.810 --> 24:53.560
did not get a final judgment from the

24:53.560 --> 24:57.010
judge until March of this year s . So

24:57.010 --> 24:59.066
it was an onerous task . I mean , we

24:59.066 --> 25:01.150
were very fortunate that had a great

25:01.170 --> 25:03.337
group of Yale law students in Yale law

25:03.337 --> 25:05.392
professors who were willing to fight

25:05.392 --> 25:07.503
this , But the average person looking

25:07.503 --> 25:09.614
for FOI evidence cannot get that kind

25:09.614 --> 25:11.860
of support . And so it was over a year

25:11.860 --> 25:13.860
and three months before you got the

25:13.860 --> 25:15.916
data that you request . That end was

25:15.916 --> 25:18.120
over three years over three years ,

25:18.130 --> 25:20.730
Three years ? Yes , it was a three year

25:20.730 --> 25:23.550
struggled the first request . We took

25:23.550 --> 25:25.661
about six months for everybody to get

25:25.661 --> 25:27.661
the information to us . But when it

25:27.661 --> 25:29.960
came to the disparity panel , its

25:29.960 --> 25:32.570
findings and its recommendations , that

25:32.570 --> 25:34.680
is a three year struggle . So after

25:34.680 --> 25:36.847
your report came out with the stunning

25:36.847 --> 25:40.740
statistics , when did you hear from the

25:40.740 --> 25:42.851
Air Force ? I've never heard from the

25:42.851 --> 25:45.184
Air Force for any of the other services .

25:45.184 --> 25:47.129
I have never heard from any of the

25:47.129 --> 25:49.351
services . None of the services reached

25:49.351 --> 25:51.407
out to us to talk about the report .

25:51.407 --> 25:53.790
Our findings ? What do you think the

25:53.790 --> 25:55.846
military should do to show that it's

25:55.846 --> 25:58.730
taking these disparities ? Disparities ?

25:58.730 --> 26:01.780
Seriously ? Well , I think the first

26:01.780 --> 26:04.210
thing we needed realizes that this is

26:04.210 --> 26:06.099
information that I know . The Air

26:06.099 --> 26:09.190
Force's track for decades back to lease

26:09.260 --> 26:11.960
the eighties and nothing was ever done .

26:12.140 --> 26:14.430
Eso There's a long track record of

26:14.430 --> 26:16.800
doing nothing . When our first report

26:16.800 --> 26:19.630
came out in 2017 you know , that was an

26:19.630 --> 26:21.519
opportunity had been put into the

26:21.519 --> 26:23.574
public . Clyde caught a lot of media

26:23.574 --> 26:25.797
coverage . Congress was concerned about

26:25.797 --> 26:27.963
it . That was opportunity to show they

26:27.963 --> 26:27.600
were gonna do something about they

26:27.600 --> 26:30.370
haven't , uh , general Goldfein , I

26:30.370 --> 26:33.100
think , took the first step by ordering

26:33.100 --> 26:35.156
the investigation . But the thing to

26:35.156 --> 26:37.156
remember about that investigation ,

26:37.156 --> 26:38.767
that's an internal Air Force

26:38.767 --> 26:40.822
investigation by the I G . Who works

26:40.822 --> 26:42.933
for General Govert . Fine . Uh , they

26:42.933 --> 26:45.650
need to be looking at outside sources

26:45.650 --> 26:47.706
to come in and talk him about that .

26:47.706 --> 26:50.480
Experts on Disparity Truly , people

26:50.480 --> 26:53.170
understand what the causes are , and I

26:53.170 --> 26:55.226
think one of the things they have to

26:55.226 --> 26:57.800
accept because what we have seen to the

26:57.800 --> 26:59.970
limit to degree , they have looked at

26:59.970 --> 27:01.581
it . They have tried to look

27:01.581 --> 27:05.170
exclusively unconscious vice . They

27:05.170 --> 27:08.130
have to accept that there's also actual

27:08.130 --> 27:09.963
buys , their action . People are

27:09.963 --> 27:12.460
prejudiced serving in the military . I

27:12.460 --> 27:14.682
don't think it's most . I don't know if

27:14.682 --> 27:16.849
it's many , but that we do have that .

27:16.849 --> 27:19.050
There was a naval officer who was just

27:19.630 --> 27:22.640
accidentally disclosed his racist

27:22.650 --> 27:26.330
beliefs on on Facebook by life . Stream

27:26.330 --> 27:28.441
made a conversation between him . His

27:28.441 --> 27:30.663
wife there was horrific Lee racist . He

27:30.663 --> 27:32.608
is an academy grad and the retired

27:32.608 --> 27:35.270
captain . We have to accept that this

27:35.270 --> 27:38.830
isn't just in Pless unconscious bites ,

27:38.830 --> 27:41.320
that there are people who don't like

27:41.320 --> 27:43.376
black people or other minorities and

27:43.376 --> 27:45.487
don't want him in the military . They

27:45.487 --> 27:47.431
have to try to root this out . But

27:47.431 --> 27:49.740
leadership I needed to stand up decades

27:49.740 --> 27:52.880
ago . Need to stand up in 2016 . Needed

27:52.890 --> 27:56.100
stand up in 2017 . Need to stand up in

27:56.100 --> 27:59.160
2019 . That has to show that they

27:59.170 --> 28:01.950
really care about this on this Farrell .

28:02.740 --> 28:06.000
All right . Um , what would you

28:06.320 --> 28:08.560
want us to make sure that the

28:08.560 --> 28:10.860
Department of Defense does moving

28:10.860 --> 28:14.440
forward . Thank you , Madam .

28:14.450 --> 28:17.320
Chairwoman Azzan noted in my statement ,

28:17.330 --> 28:19.052
we think implementation of our

28:19.052 --> 28:21.163
recommendations are key . In fact , I

28:21.163 --> 28:23.386
think the recommendations in our report

28:23.386 --> 28:27.140
our road map for Dia de with the

28:27.140 --> 28:29.251
final chapter being the causes of the

28:29.251 --> 28:31.420
disparity and taking steps to make

28:31.420 --> 28:34.050
corrections , I think continued

28:34.060 --> 28:36.660
oversight in this area is necessary .

28:36.940 --> 28:39.090
Especially as my colleagues on the

28:39.090 --> 28:41.480
panel has noted these disparities have

28:41.480 --> 28:43.860
been lingering for some time now . We

28:43.860 --> 28:47.080
have hard , reliable data to help

28:47.090 --> 28:50.060
pinpoint where there are differences so

28:50.060 --> 28:53.850
that the body can target where

28:53.850 --> 28:56.240
to start looking for the causes of

28:56.240 --> 28:58.570
these . So I think continued oversight

28:58.580 --> 29:01.350
is necessary . We noted in the report

29:01.350 --> 29:03.572
that the National Defense Authorization

29:03.572 --> 29:06.180
Act with this care 2020 have provisions

29:06.180 --> 29:08.236
that were consistent with several of

29:08.236 --> 29:10.740
our recommendations of some deadlines

29:10.740 --> 29:12.907
have been set in terms of when the U .

29:12.907 --> 29:16.020
D must begin to look at , say , the

29:16.020 --> 29:18.242
causes of disparities . But there's not

29:18.242 --> 29:20.464
an end date . I think it was recognized

29:20.464 --> 29:22.520
that more data was needed , and this

29:22.520 --> 29:24.820
was going to be a very complex review .

29:25.150 --> 29:27.150
But in order to make sure that that

29:27.150 --> 29:29.090
record is completed , I think

29:29.090 --> 29:31.090
congressional oversight is gonna be

29:31.090 --> 29:33.368
very important . Thank you . Thank you ,

29:33.368 --> 29:36.950
Mr Kelly . Thank you , Chairwoman Spear

29:36.950 --> 29:39.510
and first up , the cause of racial

29:39.510 --> 29:42.090
disparity across society and across the

29:42.090 --> 29:44.201
motive server is elusive , except for

29:44.201 --> 29:46.201
those who are blatantly races . And

29:46.201 --> 29:48.423
there are those in every organization ,

29:48.423 --> 29:51.250
including the military . What

29:51.250 --> 29:53.530
recommendations , if any , do you have

29:53.530 --> 29:55.141
that would be helpful to the

29:55.141 --> 29:56.974
departments in getting after the

29:56.974 --> 29:59.530
causation and fashioning of remedies

29:59.650 --> 30:01.706
and also understanding the causation

30:01.706 --> 30:03.872
that aren't those that are intentional

30:03.872 --> 30:06.120
those cultural or or whatever

30:06.120 --> 30:08.453
disparities that are caused by cultural ?

30:08.453 --> 30:11.310
What ? What remedies with job . Thank

30:11.310 --> 30:13.310
you . Rank . Ranking member Kelly .

30:13.310 --> 30:16.220
Well , I think , uh , General goat

30:16.220 --> 30:19.450
finds taking a first good step on that

30:19.450 --> 30:23.280
by actually kidding the input from the

30:23.280 --> 30:26.460
rank and file of services we've heard

30:26.460 --> 30:28.627
from protect protector defenders since

30:28.627 --> 30:30.793
their first report came out of segment

30:30.793 --> 30:32.900
board from a lot of Black service

30:32.900 --> 30:35.067
members who talking about what they're

30:35.067 --> 30:38.250
experiencing , I think Theo Air Force

30:38.250 --> 30:40.760
particularly , is an incredibly white

30:40.770 --> 30:43.290
officer corps , the fighter pilot

30:43.290 --> 30:46.610
communities less than 3% black on . So

30:46.610 --> 30:48.832
I think there's a lack of understanding

30:48.832 --> 30:50.777
what the Black Service members and

30:50.777 --> 30:52.721
other minority service members air

30:52.721 --> 30:54.888
facing the difficulties they faced . A

30:54.888 --> 30:58.120
lack of mentorship in 2015 Air Force

30:58.120 --> 31:00.287
times were a really good article about

31:00.287 --> 31:02.490
promotion failures for Black Service

31:02.490 --> 31:04.434
members . Failures to get definite

31:04.434 --> 31:06.490
promotes the fans air to get in

31:06.500 --> 31:10.080
residence . PM me and so getting this

31:10.080 --> 31:12.290
service members at the top to

31:12.290 --> 31:14.480
understand that there are issues their

31:14.480 --> 31:16.369
impact in the way blocks progress

31:16.369 --> 31:18.258
throughout the military and other

31:18.258 --> 31:20.369
minorities . Progress is really a key

31:20.369 --> 31:22.202
to that . And second , I want to

31:22.202 --> 31:24.369
understand the significant of years of

31:24.369 --> 31:26.710
service on this analysis . As I recall

31:26.710 --> 31:28.654
in the G A O report , you included

31:28.654 --> 31:30.766
years of service in your analysis for

31:30.766 --> 31:32.932
the Air Force data , but not the other

31:32.932 --> 31:34.599
services , because it closely

31:34.599 --> 31:36.710
correlated with Ryan . Are we looking

31:36.710 --> 31:38.932
at generally a problem that has focused

31:38.932 --> 31:41.154
primarily on youngest sovereign members

31:41.154 --> 31:43.266
across the services . And if so , how

31:43.266 --> 31:45.321
does this data compare nationally to

31:45.321 --> 31:47.043
trains ? And I for you , man ,

31:50.140 --> 31:53.390
thank you for that question . Uh , we

31:53.390 --> 31:55.930
did do a by very great branch and

31:55.930 --> 31:57.874
analysis as well as a multi varied

31:57.874 --> 32:00.160
where we would control for certain

32:00.160 --> 32:03.110
characteristics such as years of

32:03.110 --> 32:06.730
service or rank , and each service

32:06.730 --> 32:08.841
model was a little bit different . We

32:08.841 --> 32:11.008
were very closely with the services in

32:11.008 --> 32:13.119
order to understand what was going on

32:13.300 --> 32:16.860
with their particular service . Uh , as

32:16.860 --> 32:20.640
far as a comparison between older and

32:20.640 --> 32:23.990
younger , we did not develop that

32:24.000 --> 32:27.240
particular analysis to target . In

32:27.240 --> 32:31.090
terms of that , we are aware of

32:31.090 --> 32:33.160
some studies that are done in the

32:33.170 --> 32:35.337
private sector . But we did not try to

32:35.337 --> 32:37.559
make any comparisons of what's going on

32:37.559 --> 32:39.781
the military justice system with what's

32:39.781 --> 32:43.060
going on and Silver civil justices . I

32:43.070 --> 32:45.126
hope that answers your question . It

32:45.126 --> 32:46.959
doesn't back . Mr Christians are

32:46.959 --> 32:49.510
Colonel Christians , and I'm sorry I

32:49.510 --> 32:51.621
want to go back in my career . When I

32:51.621 --> 32:54.370
first got in 30 something years ago , I

32:54.370 --> 32:56.537
think I had the first African American

32:56.537 --> 32:58.481
first sort of the Mississippi Army

32:58.481 --> 33:00.481
National Guard that served under my

33:00.481 --> 33:02.370
command . But over there , so you

33:02.370 --> 33:04.537
rarely saw any senior . And she goes ,

33:04.537 --> 33:06.537
I can name on one hand . The senior

33:06.537 --> 33:08.592
0506 level officers who were African

33:08.592 --> 33:10.648
American in the Mississippi National

33:10.648 --> 33:12.759
Guard , which is Mississippi's 40 40%

33:12.759 --> 33:16.500
are African American now I can't count .

33:17.390 --> 33:19.557
And many of those were my soldiers who

33:19.557 --> 33:21.612
are meant toward I personally made a

33:21.612 --> 33:23.557
different who are Sergeant Major ,

33:23.557 --> 33:25.668
sergeant first class , who were first

33:25.668 --> 33:28.020
sergeants . The last three brigade

33:28.020 --> 33:29.853
commanders that followed me is a

33:29.853 --> 33:31.631
brigade commander , all African

33:31.631 --> 33:33.687
American not because they're African

33:33.687 --> 33:35.909
American cause that the best we got the

33:35.909 --> 33:38.220
absolute best . So now it is there . So

33:38.220 --> 33:40.442
you served a sport during the data that

33:40.442 --> 33:43.040
we collected from 2010 to 2014 you

33:43.040 --> 33:45.207
served in the Air Force and one of the

33:45.207 --> 33:47.373
chief legal rose . So what did you see

33:47.550 --> 33:49.670
and what did you do ? And now , with

33:49.670 --> 33:51.614
the experience you have now , what

33:51.614 --> 33:53.670
would you do now different to change

33:53.670 --> 33:55.837
the outcome of what happens in the Air

33:55.837 --> 33:57.948
Force to carnal Christians ? That's a

33:57.948 --> 34:00.114
great question , and I and I agree the

34:00.114 --> 34:02.620
Army actually is further ahead in

34:03.310 --> 34:06.050
Officer Corby in African American Air

34:06.050 --> 34:09.630
Force lags behind the rest . Uh , what

34:09.630 --> 34:12.490
did I see ? Uh , look , I never

34:12.490 --> 34:14.910
prosecuted someone that I thought was

34:14.920 --> 34:17.142
innocent . Of course , I don't make the

34:17.142 --> 34:19.198
prosecution decision . Somebody else

34:19.198 --> 34:21.420
does . As you know , uh , I don't think

34:21.420 --> 34:23.531
it was necessarily case that innocent

34:23.531 --> 34:25.698
people were being brought trial . What

34:25.698 --> 34:27.976
I thought the problem was is that , uh ,

34:27.976 --> 34:30.300
others were getting the benefit of the

34:30.310 --> 34:32.830
doubt . Based upon whether the

34:32.830 --> 34:35.580
relationship implicit by its explicit

34:35.580 --> 34:37.524
pies , whatever it was , they were

34:37.524 --> 34:39.747
getting the benefit of the doubt . So ,

34:39.747 --> 34:41.858
for example , two years ago , the Air

34:41.858 --> 34:44.024
Force decided to prosecute a black N C

34:44.024 --> 34:46.247
O for being six minutes late toe work ,

34:46.247 --> 34:48.469
literally six minutes late to meeting .

34:48.469 --> 34:50.636
Excuse me . And he has a court martial

34:50.636 --> 34:52.636
conviction . That's a decision that

34:52.636 --> 34:54.636
truly should not have been made . I

34:54.636 --> 34:56.747
don't care . Was an article 15 turned

34:56.747 --> 34:58.969
around or not ? Just the optics of it .

34:58.969 --> 35:01.136
What did I do ? Well , one thing I was

35:01.136 --> 35:03.080
very concerned about and raises an

35:03.080 --> 35:05.730
issue was the lack of blackjacks . We

35:05.960 --> 35:08.182
do not have enough . We have one of the

35:08.182 --> 35:10.349
great former one sitting behind me and

35:10.349 --> 35:12.810
Joe her colonel . Or but when I retired

35:12.810 --> 35:15.670
where I believe we had one of 124

35:15.670 --> 35:17.837
colonels in the Jag corps were African

35:17.837 --> 35:21.150
American . Eso I encouraged

35:21.160 --> 35:23.890
the African American word for me to try

35:23.890 --> 35:26.070
to make a career out of it , to be

35:26.070 --> 35:28.990
concerned about it . Uh , I sat on a

35:28.990 --> 35:31.750
promotion or excuse me on a selection

35:31.750 --> 35:34.490
board . I encourage the people who also

35:34.490 --> 35:37.250
sent out selection board to focus on

35:37.260 --> 35:39.427
finding good African Americans to come

35:39.427 --> 35:42.140
into Jack or because I think part of

35:42.140 --> 35:44.580
that experience of the day would bring

35:44.580 --> 35:46.636
in would be important health without

35:46.636 --> 35:50.080
bias . What have I done since obviously

35:50.080 --> 35:52.290
filing this report ? It was important

35:52.290 --> 35:54.401
to me . I knew the data was there and

35:54.401 --> 35:56.623
it troubled me . Throughout my career .

35:56.623 --> 35:58.734
I never saw leadership really address

35:58.734 --> 36:00.901
it , and I thought it was important to

36:00.901 --> 36:02.623
bring it forward . Thank you ,

36:02.623 --> 36:04.846
Chairwoman . Are you back ? Thank you ,

36:04.846 --> 36:08.310
Mr . Kelly was were white and

36:08.310 --> 36:10.290
CEOs that were six minutes late ,

36:10.380 --> 36:13.480
courts martialed . I have never seen

36:13.490 --> 36:15.440
anybody court martialed with soul

36:15.440 --> 36:17.496
offense of being six minutes late to

36:17.496 --> 36:19.329
meeting . Other than its African

36:19.329 --> 36:22.300
American , it's really stunning All

36:22.300 --> 36:24.430
right , Miss Davis , Um , you're

36:24.430 --> 36:27.830
recognized for five minutes . Thank you .

36:27.830 --> 36:30.130
Thank you , madam Chair . And you are

36:30.130 --> 36:32.297
witnesses . Thank you for joining us .

36:33.730 --> 36:36.620
Ah , Colonel Piston said first . How

36:36.630 --> 36:39.250
can you talk with maybe without getting

36:39.250 --> 36:41.330
in the weeds too much a little bit

36:41.330 --> 36:44.220
about , um , how you gather your your

36:44.220 --> 36:46.960
statistical information . And I just

36:46.960 --> 36:48.960
wanted to get a sense of the assist

36:48.960 --> 36:50.960
ical statistical analysis , whether

36:50.960 --> 36:52.960
that was very different , um , from

36:52.960 --> 36:55.016
Miss Barrels . And and And then I'll

36:55.016 --> 36:57.071
ask Miss Farrell . It's just talking

36:57.071 --> 36:59.620
about that And whether you think

36:59.620 --> 37:02.210
information was concealed and sort of

37:02.210 --> 37:04.520
your level of confidence . I guess with

37:04.640 --> 37:07.420
with the the analysis and whether it

37:07.430 --> 37:09.430
revealed sort of really what you're

37:09.430 --> 37:11.740
trying to get out here . How do we do

37:11.740 --> 37:15.560
that ? Thank you , Congressman Davis .

37:16.300 --> 37:18.770
So for the initial FOIA requests we

37:18.770 --> 37:21.180
requested from each service 10 years of

37:21.180 --> 37:25.090
data showing their raper thousands of

37:25.270 --> 37:28.830
court martial in article 15 for African

37:28.830 --> 37:30.997
American whites and other minorities .

37:31.100 --> 37:33.620
Uh , we received that data from

37:33.620 --> 37:36.070
everyone except the navy only gave us

37:36.070 --> 37:38.070
two years of data . The Coast Guard

37:38.070 --> 37:41.950
never responded . The , uh , data

37:41.950 --> 37:44.228
we got from the Air Force was the best .

37:44.400 --> 37:47.340
I knew their process would track Well ,

37:47.730 --> 37:50.810
ah , very confident that the data that

37:50.810 --> 37:54.110
they provide us is accurate . And that

37:54.110 --> 37:57.160
what we saw out of that data waas a

37:57.480 --> 38:00.210
historical disparity of racial

38:01.540 --> 38:04.150
where blacks were prosecuted and given

38:04.150 --> 38:07.710
Article 15 on a much greater rate and

38:07.720 --> 38:09.998
that it was getting worse , not better .

38:09.998 --> 38:12.109
And that's what we saw across all the

38:12.109 --> 38:14.460
services . Uh , the Army did not track

38:14.650 --> 38:17.630
nonjudicial punishments . The Marine

38:17.630 --> 38:21.310
Corps Unnie tracked by convictions they

38:21.310 --> 38:23.532
didn't . So we don't know what how many

38:23.532 --> 38:25.699
cases were charged , His convictions ,

38:25.920 --> 38:28.142
the Marine Corps . It was interesting .

38:28.142 --> 38:30.142
As theme or severe , the punishment

38:30.142 --> 38:32.031
degraded the disparity . So , for

38:32.031 --> 38:34.930
example , by the time we got to general

38:34.930 --> 38:36.986
courts martial in the Marine Corps ,

38:36.986 --> 38:38.930
the disparity was almost 2.6 times

38:38.930 --> 38:40.930
greater for blacks . And it was for

38:40.930 --> 38:44.720
whites , uh , theme . The

38:45.000 --> 38:48.050
issue we don't would cover up waas .

38:48.050 --> 38:50.050
When we did the follow on about the

38:50.050 --> 38:52.050
racial disparity panel that the Air

38:52.050 --> 38:55.530
Force said that they established and

38:55.540 --> 38:57.540
Miss Farrell , could you respond to

38:57.540 --> 38:59.651
that ? And are there some differences

38:59.651 --> 39:01.762
or various again that you didn't feel

39:01.762 --> 39:03.429
that you were able to get the

39:03.429 --> 39:06.660
information and , um really had some

39:06.670 --> 39:09.220
sort of lack of confidence . Maybe in

39:09.230 --> 39:12.780
some of that data , Sure , I'll be

39:12.780 --> 39:16.350
happy to expand upon our methodology .

39:16.360 --> 39:18.860
Our methodology was for a different

39:18.860 --> 39:22.130
time period . Thin dons is listen much

39:22.130 --> 39:24.610
longer . Ours focused on the physical

39:24.610 --> 39:28.370
year 2013 2017 which was the latest

39:28.370 --> 39:32.270
available data . We experienced

39:32.270 --> 39:33.992
very good cooperation from the

39:33.992 --> 39:36.214
Department of Defense . This was a very

39:36.214 --> 39:38.570
rigorous analysis is I noted we

39:38.570 --> 39:41.910
obtained the records all the records

39:41.910 --> 39:43.910
for that period between fiscal year

39:43.910 --> 39:47.410
2013 and 2017 in

39:47.420 --> 39:50.610
three , dead in three categories of 15

39:50.610 --> 39:53.500
databases across services . There were

39:53.500 --> 39:57.060
some places where data was incomplete ,

39:57.070 --> 40:00.500
and that's the reason we say that it's

40:00.500 --> 40:02.222
We found disparities that were

40:02.222 --> 40:04.278
statistically significant at certain

40:04.278 --> 40:07.070
stages of the military jury justice

40:07.070 --> 40:10.510
process . But at other stages of the

40:10.510 --> 40:12.510
findings were inconclusive and it's

40:12.510 --> 40:14.677
usually inconclusive for two reasons .

40:14.677 --> 40:17.700
One incomplete data . Not that any of

40:17.700 --> 40:19.867
the service did not provide the data ,

40:19.867 --> 40:22.070
but the data was incomplete , such as

40:22.080 --> 40:24.880
nonjudicial Punishments of the data was

40:24.880 --> 40:28.390
incomplete for the army and the maybe

40:28.390 --> 40:30.557
as well as the Coast Guard , so it was

40:30.557 --> 40:33.780
very inconclusive . But way were seeing

40:33.780 --> 40:35.870
very good cooperation from duty

40:36.130 --> 40:40.090
analysis that Joo did , uh , in Kabul .

40:40.110 --> 40:42.221
Knowing all this information together

40:42.250 --> 40:44.650
takes time , it's not something that

40:44.780 --> 40:47.430
deal be could do routinely in an

40:47.430 --> 40:49.541
efficient manner . That's why it's so

40:49.541 --> 40:51.541
important for them to carry out the

40:51.541 --> 40:55.060
recommendation to adapt their

40:55.060 --> 40:57.640
personnel and their investigative

40:57.640 --> 40:59.840
databases to have the same uniform

40:59.840 --> 41:02.780
standards as the military justice . So

41:02.780 --> 41:06.420
that going forward , especially if the

41:06.420 --> 41:08.880
causes of disparities are identified

41:08.880 --> 41:10.960
and steps were taken to remedy those

41:11.120 --> 41:13.231
you want to be sure you have put that

41:13.231 --> 41:15.890
in place . I don't think you will find

41:15.890 --> 41:18.320
that promise . Yeah , okay , thank you .

41:18.320 --> 41:20.500
And I hope that in our next discussion

41:20.500 --> 41:22.640
will get into those causes . Uh ,

41:22.650 --> 41:24.840
certainly . But girl Christians in

41:24.840 --> 41:27.062
going back to you very , very quickly I

41:27.062 --> 41:29.118
know you gente on and really in your

41:29.118 --> 41:31.118
analysis , felt it was important to

41:31.118 --> 41:32.951
look it legally trained military

41:32.951 --> 41:35.120
prosecutors . But I guess within the

41:35.120 --> 41:37.120
judicial system , we would probably

41:37.120 --> 41:39.398
I'll agree that there's always there's ,

41:39.398 --> 41:41.509
there is some bias there . How do you

41:41.509 --> 41:43.760
How do you think that's different in

41:43.760 --> 41:45.482
the military ? How could it be

41:45.482 --> 41:47.316
different if I'm understand your

41:47.316 --> 41:49.970
question ? Um , well , I think rather

41:49.970 --> 41:52.300
than leaning , leading on the

41:52.300 --> 41:56.140
commander's , the military legally

41:56.140 --> 41:58.307
trade military prosecutors . Is that a

41:58.307 --> 42:00.473
different kind of bias that they would

42:00.473 --> 42:03.800
bring to their positions ? Well ,

42:03.810 --> 42:06.220
I think that there's also always some

42:06.220 --> 42:08.498
implicit bias within new Jessel system .

42:08.498 --> 42:10.553
Of course , as well as a swell is in

42:10.553 --> 42:12.760
the military as well as in society .

42:12.760 --> 42:16.120
But you see that Mr Pernetti and why ?

42:16.120 --> 42:18.398
But there that recommendation be there .

42:18.398 --> 42:20.342
Well , as I agree , ranking member

42:20.342 --> 42:22.342
Kelly there's always buys no matter

42:22.342 --> 42:24.176
what system we have , and that's

42:24.176 --> 42:26.590
unfortunate . The reason we talk about

42:26.590 --> 42:29.960
that is the bias that the command

42:30.300 --> 42:32.690
decision who had the commander has the

42:32.700 --> 42:34.950
power to make that decision is he knows

42:34.950 --> 42:37.460
the accused . He also knows the person

42:37.460 --> 42:39.460
he chose not to prosecute or not to

42:39.460 --> 42:42.240
give an article 15 to . Whereas , as a

42:42.250 --> 42:44.472
prosecutor , I never knew anybody until

42:44.472 --> 42:46.790
I walked in the court . S o . I could

42:46.790 --> 42:49.100
not have a bias against them one way or

42:49.100 --> 42:51.322
the other , and so that's where I think

42:51.322 --> 42:54.190
the key is there's an inherent bias in

42:54.190 --> 42:56.412
the chain of command when they know the

42:56.412 --> 42:58.730
people involved . If they haven't

42:58.730 --> 43:00.341
established the same kind of

43:00.341 --> 43:02.397
relationships with African Americans

43:02.397 --> 43:04.563
that work with for them , as they have

43:04.563 --> 43:06.730
with the white service members of work

43:06.730 --> 43:08.786
for them , I think it's gonna have a

43:08.786 --> 43:11.008
negative impact . And you feel that the

43:11.008 --> 43:13.790
prosecutors wouldn't bring that kind of

43:13.790 --> 43:15.790
bias , At least in maybe . What are

43:15.790 --> 43:18.012
other other biases that they actually ,

43:18.012 --> 43:20.510
um , Miss Davis , you've gone over a

43:20.510 --> 43:23.660
minute . 51 So great . All right .

43:23.670 --> 43:25.781
Thank you . Thank you . Better here .

43:25.781 --> 43:28.003
All right . Next we have this Escobar ,

43:28.003 --> 43:30.059
you're recognized for five minutes .

43:32.100 --> 43:34.610
Thank you so much , Madam Chairwoman .

43:34.620 --> 43:36.676
And many , thanks to our Panelists .

43:36.790 --> 43:38.734
You know , Kirk Kristiansen . It's

43:38.734 --> 43:40.846
really interesting that you mentioned

43:40.846 --> 43:43.860
the Coast Guard because I just recently

43:43.870 --> 43:46.220
read a report about the Coast Guard ,

43:46.220 --> 43:48.442
which obviously is under the Department

43:48.442 --> 43:51.270
of Homeland Security . Not uh d o d .

43:51.350 --> 43:55.220
But the , um , report by the inspector

43:55.220 --> 43:58.860
general found that incidents of ,

43:59.140 --> 44:02.650
um , racial harassment were

44:02.650 --> 44:06.610
not . There were no consequences

44:06.610 --> 44:09.810
for cadets who used racial slurs

44:09.820 --> 44:12.060
against their fellow cadets .

44:12.330 --> 44:14.497
Absolutely no consequences . And there

44:14.497 --> 44:17.000
was a history of this . And so I think

44:17.010 --> 44:19.121
one of the things that we're going to

44:19.121 --> 44:21.121
need to do is really kind of take a

44:21.121 --> 44:25.070
look at , um , at really

44:25.080 --> 44:27.120
a broad sense of cut cause ality ,

44:27.120 --> 44:30.860
including whether folks were punished

44:30.870 --> 44:34.790
for using racial slurs , etcetera . But

44:34.790 --> 44:37.012
to both of you . And I know we're gonna

44:37.012 --> 44:39.179
get into this morning the next panel .

44:39.179 --> 44:41.530
But well , as we're talking about the

44:41.540 --> 44:44.620
positive factors , what would you say ?

44:44.630 --> 44:46.630
Just based on the research that you

44:46.630 --> 44:48.519
have done , what are the positive

44:48.519 --> 44:51.430
factors in these disparities in the

44:51.430 --> 44:53.152
research that you have found ?

44:55.390 --> 44:57.168
Well , and that's the excellent

44:57.168 --> 44:59.279
question and , you know , goes beyond

44:59.279 --> 45:01.350
my expertise is . And what the data

45:01.710 --> 45:03.877
that we have is the data shows This is

45:03.877 --> 45:06.380
a problem on . And that's what we were

45:06.380 --> 45:09.140
hoping that the military service would

45:09.140 --> 45:10.918
do once the problem was brought

45:10.918 --> 45:12.918
publicly to lie to them , that they

45:12.918 --> 45:15.029
would look for the causes and we were

45:15.029 --> 45:17.307
limited in what access we have on that .

45:17.307 --> 45:20.440
But just as someone who served for 23

45:20.440 --> 45:22.340
years and it served all that in

45:22.340 --> 45:24.870
military justice world , I do think

45:24.870 --> 45:27.520
that theme the racial makeup ,

45:27.520 --> 45:29.900
especially of the Air Force leadership

45:30.470 --> 45:33.430
without a doubt , has some impact on

45:33.440 --> 45:35.607
the disparities that we have . General

45:35.607 --> 45:37.718
heightened . When he testified at his

45:37.718 --> 45:39.940
nomination hearing to become device

45:39.940 --> 45:43.770
chair felt here , uh , when he

45:43.770 --> 45:47.390
became the vice chair on , said that

45:47.400 --> 45:49.640
basically , the issue of race was

45:49.640 --> 45:52.800
behind the military , that he when he

45:52.800 --> 45:56.210
looked at the service , it was color

45:56.210 --> 45:59.410
blind . Azi did it , you know ,

45:59.410 --> 46:01.420
And that's the problem . You know ,

46:01.420 --> 46:04.360
there's 24 star African American

46:04.360 --> 46:07.700
generals and entire D . O . D s . So we

46:07.710 --> 46:11.130
really need to focus on on the

46:11.140 --> 46:13.530
inclusion of all races and their voices

46:13.530 --> 46:16.480
and understanding issues that the young

46:16.490 --> 46:18.434
Black Service members are facing .

46:20.780 --> 46:23.002
Thank you so much , Miss Farrell . Your

46:23.002 --> 46:25.113
thoughts and anything come to mind as

46:25.113 --> 46:28.720
you were conducting your research . One

46:28.720 --> 46:30.942
of our objectives was to determine what

46:30.942 --> 46:33.810
steps todo taken to determine causes

46:33.810 --> 46:36.290
and disparities . And what we found was

46:36.300 --> 46:38.300
there's been some steps , but not a

46:38.300 --> 46:40.570
comprehensive review by steps . There's

46:40.570 --> 46:43.640
climate surveys that gained information

46:43.640 --> 46:46.130
on perspectives of service members .

46:46.390 --> 46:49.330
But going back to the seventies

46:49.330 --> 46:51.386
eighties and nineties , there really

46:51.386 --> 46:54.040
hasn't been focused on the military

46:54.040 --> 46:55.870
justice system and causes for

46:55.880 --> 46:58.050
experience . We again think that our

46:58.050 --> 47:00.940
report pointing to certain stages of

47:00.940 --> 47:02.996
the military , cross says , can help

47:02.996 --> 47:05.051
carry cause where to start looking .

47:05.051 --> 47:08.070
For those causes on . That is a

47:08.070 --> 47:10.237
recommendation duties agree with , but

47:10.237 --> 47:11.848
also in the National Defense

47:11.848 --> 47:14.290
Authorization Act for 2020 . There is a

47:14.290 --> 47:16.457
provision consistent with that at that

47:16.457 --> 47:19.660
by , uh , blames this month . View he

47:19.670 --> 47:21.920
will proceed with such a study .

47:22.120 --> 47:24.750
Commence it . Thank you . Thank you

47:24.750 --> 47:27.028
both . I'm quickly running out of time .

47:27.028 --> 47:28.930
I just wanted Teoh make note for

47:28.930 --> 47:30.986
something about something with my my

47:30.986 --> 47:33.041
colleagues and with the chairwoman .

47:33.041 --> 47:35.430
You know , we've We've been talking

47:35.430 --> 47:38.380
about this issue , um , for the last

47:38.380 --> 47:40.740
year and 1/2 and it really is important

47:40.740 --> 47:42.760
in terms off , not just African

47:42.760 --> 47:45.410
American service members , but Latinos .

47:45.680 --> 47:48.350
Um , and also , I'm very curious about

47:48.350 --> 47:50.390
the impact on immigrants in our

47:51.020 --> 47:53.076
services , especially when we have a

47:53.076 --> 47:54.131
commander in chief

47:59.560 --> 48:02.520
on disparate treatment as well . But

48:02.520 --> 48:04.742
one of the things that we have found is

48:04.742 --> 48:07.300
at the highest levels of authority

48:07.310 --> 48:09.380
within the military . It's just it's

48:09.390 --> 48:12.680
even less diverse on git . Maybe

48:12.680 --> 48:15.460
because of the adverse military

48:15.460 --> 48:17.682
judicial system encounters that you all

48:17.682 --> 48:19.849
have pointed out that maybe one of the

48:19.849 --> 48:22.520
underlying causes I know just about out

48:22.520 --> 48:24.920
of time . Thank you both again for your

48:24.920 --> 48:27.510
work , and I yield back . Thank you ,

48:27.510 --> 48:30.150
Miss Escobar . Um , this Loria , you

48:30.150 --> 48:32.261
are now recognized for five minutes .

48:37.830 --> 48:40.550
Um , thank you . And I want to thank

48:41.560 --> 48:43.449
Sir Christian sent atmosphere for

48:43.449 --> 48:45.449
joining us today . And I think that

48:45.449 --> 48:47.616
this really highlights something , you

48:47.616 --> 48:47.430
know , the saying is that justice is

48:47.440 --> 48:50.030
blind , but it's showing that justice

48:50.030 --> 48:53.390
is not color blind on having served

48:53.390 --> 48:55.557
myself in the military , having been a

48:55.557 --> 48:57.930
commanding officer and part of the N J

48:57.930 --> 49:00.970
P nonjudicial punishment process within

49:00.970 --> 49:03.450
the command . I think that , you know ,

49:03.460 --> 49:05.627
understanding that in the lack of data

49:06.060 --> 49:08.227
that has been collected in the lack of

49:08.227 --> 49:11.350
affording requirements that existed , I

49:11.360 --> 49:13.582
think that that's very useful for us to

49:13.582 --> 49:15.693
Here is a committee to understand the

49:15.693 --> 49:17.804
scope of this problem and get after ,

49:17.804 --> 49:20.860
you know , true core issues of why a

49:20.870 --> 49:23.850
disparity could exist . Miss Farrell

49:23.850 --> 49:26.840
just mentioned in her comments a couple

49:26.840 --> 49:29.050
of minutes ago the fact that there's

49:29.050 --> 49:31.460
command climate data as a command

49:31.460 --> 49:33.970
climate survey data as well . That I

49:33.970 --> 49:36.250
think can be an informative on . This ,

49:36.820 --> 49:38.653
you know , is part of the bigger

49:38.653 --> 49:42.200
picture because we don't necessarily

49:42.200 --> 49:44.144
have accurate data for nonjudicial

49:44.144 --> 49:46.478
punishment in all parts of the judicial ,

49:46.478 --> 49:48.700
the military justice system to go off .

49:48.910 --> 49:51.650
But even Mistral , can you elaborate on

49:51.660 --> 49:53.970
how command climate data could help

49:53.970 --> 49:56.780
inform . You know what the previous

49:56.930 --> 49:58.819
questions about from this Escobar

49:59.570 --> 50:01.570
vision , a way that we could try to

50:01.570 --> 50:03.348
incorporate that or require the

50:03.348 --> 50:05.570
incorporation of that into the analysis

50:05.570 --> 50:07.681
because that's taken regularly . It's

50:07.681 --> 50:07.280
taken from all commands , and it's

50:07.280 --> 50:09.336
taken from the perspective of people

50:09.336 --> 50:11.470
who are not only involved themselves

50:11.470 --> 50:15.190
personally in anak ization who are

50:15.200 --> 50:16.867
going through the nonjudicial

50:16.867 --> 50:18.644
punishment process . So can you

50:18.644 --> 50:20.700
elaborate everyone on how that could

50:20.700 --> 50:22.756
maybe be a piece of the data that we

50:22.756 --> 50:25.030
need to fully analyse ? Sure . Be happy

50:25.030 --> 50:27.770
to a lot of arrayed , uh , command

50:27.780 --> 50:30.130
climate surveys are required . Ah ,

50:30.140 --> 50:32.740
blink duty has gotten much better in

50:32.740 --> 50:34.962
the past few years and making sure that

50:34.962 --> 50:37.184
they be administered thanks to a little

50:37.184 --> 50:39.450
help from Congress . They're designed

50:39.450 --> 50:41.370
to help an incoming commander

50:41.560 --> 50:44.300
understand the working environment and

50:44.300 --> 50:46.590
what issues he or she may need to focus

50:46.590 --> 50:48.830
on while they have a command . There's

50:48.830 --> 50:51.120
usually a standard set of questions

50:51.120 --> 50:54.040
that are answered and in the incoming

50:54.040 --> 50:55.929
commander can ask some additional

50:55.929 --> 50:58.140
questions . Climate surveys have been

50:58.140 --> 51:01.200
very beneficial to paying perceptions

51:01.210 --> 51:03.930
of service members and many personnel

51:04.110 --> 51:07.540
areas of work of film looking at

51:07.860 --> 51:10.550
hazing , a swell as other sexual

51:10.550 --> 51:14.310
assault issues . So I think the

51:14.320 --> 51:17.140
surveys could be reviewed in order to

51:17.480 --> 51:19.910
see if there's something that could be

51:19.910 --> 51:22.130
gain . We do have to be careful about

51:22.130 --> 51:24.520
survey fatigue . We hear that from duty

51:24.530 --> 51:27.070
all the time , but this comes down to

51:27.260 --> 51:30.150
where is this issue of racial and

51:30.150 --> 51:32.670
ethnic disparities indeed , of these

51:32.670 --> 51:36.260
priorities ? So command climate surveys

51:36.270 --> 51:38.950
could have , Ah , some issues

51:38.950 --> 51:41.760
incorporated . The status of forces is

51:41.760 --> 51:44.730
another survey of the active duty .

51:44.730 --> 51:46.563
There's also another one for the

51:46.563 --> 51:48.786
reserve component , the civilians . But

51:48.786 --> 51:50.563
that's another one that there's

51:50.563 --> 51:52.452
standard questions that often the

51:52.452 --> 51:54.563
questions change . But when an issues

51:54.563 --> 51:56.674
emerging often do the uses the status

51:56.674 --> 51:59.370
of forces survey to ask a set of

51:59.370 --> 52:01.537
questions over a period of a few years

52:01.537 --> 52:03.592
to try to dig a little deeper to see

52:03.592 --> 52:05.759
what's going on . So there's there are

52:05.940 --> 52:09.610
survey instruments already in use that

52:09.780 --> 52:12.290
could be used to perhaps obtain some or

52:12.390 --> 52:14.612
information about this particular issue

52:14.612 --> 52:18.160
in the military justice system . Well ,

52:18.160 --> 52:20.271
thank you for that . And you know , I

52:20.271 --> 52:22.493
think that , you know , as we look at ,

52:22.493 --> 52:24.493
um , you know how to try to collect

52:24.493 --> 52:26.604
that and to assess the situation , to

52:26.604 --> 52:28.771
identify the root causes that we could

52:28.771 --> 52:30.938
consider that there is additional data

52:30.938 --> 52:33.049
on top of just statistical data about

52:33.049 --> 52:36.800
the types of JP that happened on . Do

52:36.800 --> 52:39.280
you think it could also be somewhat

52:39.500 --> 52:41.667
difficult ? I think we have to be very

52:41.667 --> 52:43.556
clear on how we collect that data

52:43.556 --> 52:45.556
because you know different things .

52:45.556 --> 52:47.889
Stop it . Different phases Within the N .

52:47.889 --> 52:49.944
J P process . Some of them may never

52:49.944 --> 52:52.167
reach Captain's mast , for example , or

52:52.167 --> 52:54.167
office hours or whatever turned the

52:54.167 --> 52:56.222
service uses for that process on DSO

52:56.222 --> 52:58.640
may stop short of that with just

52:58.640 --> 53:00.696
assigning extra military instruction

53:00.696 --> 53:02.696
and other things . And I think that

53:02.696 --> 53:04.751
there is also an aspect of the N J P

53:04.751 --> 53:06.807
process with the A check to maintain

53:06.807 --> 53:08.973
good order and discipline . Attempt to

53:08.973 --> 53:10.751
use the process when there is a

53:10.751 --> 53:12.696
supposed infraction to improve the

53:12.696 --> 53:14.529
performance of the sailor of the

53:14.529 --> 53:16.529
soldier , with things such as extra

53:16.529 --> 53:18.584
military instruction and things like

53:18.584 --> 53:20.529
that which are clearly required to

53:20.529 --> 53:22.807
address specifically the issue at hand .

53:22.807 --> 53:24.807
Um and are not viewed as punishment

53:24.807 --> 53:27.029
that are viewed , as you know , wasting

53:27.029 --> 53:29.140
and improve their performance on make

53:29.140 --> 53:31.307
them better soldiers or sailors . So I

53:31.307 --> 53:32.973
think , you know , definitely

53:32.973 --> 53:35.196
collecting data is very important . But

53:35.196 --> 53:38.770
I appreciate your work and researching

53:38.770 --> 53:40.881
this , and I think that we do need to

53:40.881 --> 53:43.103
do more to understand the problem or to

53:43.103 --> 53:45.214
get at the root causes . And training

53:45.214 --> 53:47.437
is also an issue as well . I think that

53:47.437 --> 53:47.290
as a commanding officer , you know ,

53:47.920 --> 53:50.190
and maybe what was specifically the

53:50.200 --> 53:53.390
maybe legal justice course , and then

53:53.400 --> 53:55.511
there's not really any specific thing

53:55.511 --> 53:57.511
that I recall in that training that

53:57.511 --> 53:59.400
addressed specifically looking at

53:59.400 --> 54:02.840
racial disparities or uniform

54:03.140 --> 54:05.307
application of the justice system . So

54:05.307 --> 54:07.640
I apologize ever and over , madam Chair .

54:07.640 --> 54:09.862
But thank you again . I look forward to

54:09.862 --> 54:12.084
the next of Pamela's . Thank you , Miss

54:12.084 --> 54:13.980
Loria . Now , Miss Helen , you're

54:13.980 --> 54:16.170
recognized for five minutes , except

54:16.170 --> 54:18.680
you're not there . Um , we'll come back

54:18.680 --> 54:20.347
to you , Mr Cisneros . You're

54:20.347 --> 54:24.340
recognized for five minutes . Thank you ,

54:24.340 --> 54:26.640
Madam Chairwoman . And I think our

54:26.640 --> 54:28.473
Panelists for being here today ,

54:29.320 --> 54:31.710
Colonel questions in Look , I'm a

54:31.710 --> 54:34.190
product of the Navy's What used to be

54:34.190 --> 54:36.468
the Navy's apartment of action program .

54:36.468 --> 54:38.412
I went through this program called

54:38.412 --> 54:40.190
Brought an opportunity , roster

54:40.190 --> 54:42.023
selection and training . It took

54:42.023 --> 54:44.700
enlisted personnel of people of color .

54:46.700 --> 54:49.310
How preparing for college . So it was

54:49.310 --> 54:51.477
part of the Navy's process to get more

54:51.477 --> 54:53.588
people color into the officer ranks .

54:54.130 --> 54:56.730
You know , As you stated Carell ,

54:57.020 --> 54:59.020
that's me . Percent of our military

54:59.020 --> 55:00.964
officers , or white 8% are African

55:00.964 --> 55:04.090
American . It's even lower for Asians

55:04.090 --> 55:06.310
and Hispanics . You know , when you

55:06.310 --> 55:08.366
talk about the impact of the lack of

55:08.366 --> 55:10.588
representation in the officer ranks and

55:10.588 --> 55:12.754
how it has disparities in our military

55:12.754 --> 55:15.580
justice system . Um , and you also

55:15.580 --> 55:17.691
mentioned about , you know , the lack

55:17.691 --> 55:19.747
of in when you were in the Air Force

55:19.747 --> 55:21.802
the lack of diversity in the jack or

55:21.802 --> 55:24.400
there . But really , what do we need to

55:24.400 --> 55:27.320
do ? Is faras recruiting goes to bring

55:27.320 --> 55:30.070
these numbers up ? So in really well ,

55:30.070 --> 55:34.030
recruiting Mawr divers officer corps

55:34.330 --> 55:36.770
really helps off this problem in the

55:36.780 --> 55:38.613
criminal justice system . In the

55:38.613 --> 55:41.740
military of the the disparities ,

55:45.600 --> 55:47.820
I think , Congressman Well , I think ,

55:47.830 --> 55:50.020
uh , you know , prioritizing .

55:50.870 --> 55:52.981
Definitely . As you talked about that

55:52.981 --> 55:55.203
opportunity to go from a young enlisted

55:55.680 --> 55:57.569
black service member to come . An

55:57.569 --> 55:59.510
officer How do we encourage that

55:59.520 --> 56:02.710
process ? Uh , what are we doing to

56:02.710 --> 56:04.860
make sure that the officers have

56:04.860 --> 56:07.480
mentorship that they and that is so key .

56:07.480 --> 56:09.770
What ? How far do you progress in the

56:09.770 --> 56:12.350
jack or any other part of the

56:13.750 --> 56:15.972
The service depends on who you have her

56:15.972 --> 56:18.240
mentors , And so do we have people

56:18.240 --> 56:20.129
looking out for those young black

56:20.129 --> 56:22.920
officers on making sure that they can

56:22.920 --> 56:24.698
progress ? Are they getting the

56:24.698 --> 56:27.800
opportunities to go toe professional

56:27.800 --> 56:29.744
military education and residents ,

56:29.744 --> 56:31.800
which is a key to getting promoted ,

56:31.800 --> 56:33.856
especially to the general officer of

56:33.856 --> 56:36.810
Flag officer rank on and then

56:37.480 --> 56:39.660
making sure that that they are

56:39.670 --> 56:42.520
operating in a good environment . So

56:42.530 --> 56:45.870
story just broke . Believe this weekend

56:46.120 --> 56:49.470
about the racial problems at West Point

56:49.470 --> 56:51.581
and that the cadets there the African

56:51.581 --> 56:53.692
American gets , I believe 25% of them

56:53.692 --> 56:55.803
said that they have been subjected to

56:55.803 --> 56:58.130
racial abuse . And so we got to make

56:58.130 --> 57:00.450
sure that have the institutions that

57:00.450 --> 57:02.672
are giving us our future leaders , that

57:02.672 --> 57:04.820
the people serving and trying to get

57:04.820 --> 57:06.653
that commission are treated with

57:06.653 --> 57:07.653
respect .

57:10.810 --> 57:14.180
Miss Farrow , you know , in the 2019

57:14.180 --> 57:16.440
Geo report recommended that the Army ,

57:16.440 --> 57:18.630
navy and Coast Guard collect data such

57:18.630 --> 57:20.574
as , you know , race , ethnicity ,

57:20.574 --> 57:23.070
gender offensive punishment for all

57:23.070 --> 57:25.580
nonjudicial punishments . Can you

57:25.580 --> 57:27.302
elaborate on the importance of

57:27.302 --> 57:29.302
collecting this data and update the

57:29.302 --> 57:31.413
committee on the services progress in

57:31.413 --> 57:34.790
this area . Yes .

57:34.840 --> 57:38.660
Oh , this is an area where the data was

57:38.660 --> 57:40.950
inconclusive because those three

57:40.950 --> 57:42.050
services

57:44.510 --> 57:47.640
had incomplete data to determine the

57:47.640 --> 57:49.307
extent of disparities and the

57:49.307 --> 57:51.529
nonjudicial punishments . What happened

57:51.529 --> 57:54.550
was in conducting our data reliability

57:54.550 --> 57:58.360
check . We did identify of the number

57:58.370 --> 58:01.710
of non judicial cases in the Court of

58:01.710 --> 58:03.654
Appeals for the Armed Services and

58:03.654 --> 58:06.050
reports from the school year 2013 to

58:06.060 --> 58:09.210
2017 and compared those numbers with

58:09.210 --> 58:12.520
the numbers in the services

58:12.770 --> 58:15.600
military , justice databases as well as

58:15.610 --> 58:18.660
their personal down bases . And we

58:18.660 --> 58:21.870
found that for the Army , roughly

58:21.870 --> 58:25.630
65% of the reported cases were

58:25.630 --> 58:28.870
not in there are databases , and those

58:28.870 --> 58:30.981
reported cases air in the report , by

58:30.981 --> 58:33.203
the way , that goes to Congress and the

58:33.203 --> 58:36.240
Secretary of Sense . About 8% of the

58:36.250 --> 58:40.040
cases that were reported in the

58:41.080 --> 58:43.060
end reports were not in the name X

58:43.060 --> 58:46.500
database , and about 82% of the cases

58:46.620 --> 58:49.450
but the Coast Guard were reported out ,

58:49.460 --> 58:52.190
but not in their databases . So we made

58:52.190 --> 58:55.860
a recommendation that thes three

58:55.860 --> 58:59.810
services have complete

58:59.810 --> 59:02.340
information on non judiciary

59:02.340 --> 59:04.710
punishments after discussions with them .

59:04.710 --> 59:07.250
There were some concerns about how they

59:07.250 --> 59:09.440
would do that . So the recommendation

59:09.440 --> 59:11.320
is actually to determine the

59:11.330 --> 59:13.600
feasibility , including the benefits

59:13.600 --> 59:16.030
and the drawbacks of having complete

59:16.440 --> 59:19.680
non judiciary punishment data . We know

59:19.680 --> 59:23.500
that the Army and the Navy have moved

59:23.500 --> 59:25.630
forward and decided that they want to

59:25.630 --> 59:27.852
have this information . And perhaps you

59:27.852 --> 59:30.074
could learn more about that on the next

59:30.074 --> 59:32.297
panel . The Coast Guard plans to make a

59:32.297 --> 59:34.241
decision about the feasibility and

59:34.241 --> 59:36.350
collecting such data in September of

59:36.350 --> 59:38.572
this year . All right . Thank you . Are

59:38.572 --> 59:40.200
you back ? You won't be .

59:44.540 --> 59:46.818
Thank you , Mr Cisneros . Miss Holland .

59:46.818 --> 59:49.151
Followed by Miss Trey Han . And finally ,

59:49.151 --> 59:50.873
Mr Brown . Miss Holland , your

59:50.873 --> 59:53.310
recognise for five minutes . Thank you .

59:53.310 --> 59:55.532
Chair Woman to woman . I don't have any

59:55.532 --> 59:57.754
questions at this time for this panel ,

59:58.230 --> 01:00:00.452
but I will be here for the next panel .

01:00:00.452 --> 01:00:02.870
Thank you . I yield back to you . All

01:00:02.870 --> 01:00:04.981
right . Thank you . Mr a hen . You're

01:00:04.981 --> 01:00:07.820
recognized for five minutes . Uh ,

01:00:07.830 --> 01:00:11.130
thank you , madam Chair . Uh , I , um

01:00:11.510 --> 01:00:13.750
so I'll just put my bias out there . I

01:00:13.750 --> 01:00:16.380
don't generally believe that it takes

01:00:16.710 --> 01:00:19.900
years to change . I do believe that it

01:00:19.900 --> 01:00:21.622
happens closer to an instant ,

01:00:21.622 --> 01:00:23.510
especially when we have a strong

01:00:23.510 --> 01:00:25.621
culture and strong leadership , which

01:00:25.621 --> 01:00:27.399
is something I believe we pride

01:00:27.399 --> 01:00:30.440
ourselves in . Uh , so that being said ,

01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:33.780
I'll just ask the question . Um uh ,

01:00:33.790 --> 01:00:35.901
toe Colonel Christian said , And Miss

01:00:35.901 --> 01:00:37.846
Farrell , do you believe convening

01:00:37.846 --> 01:00:40.012
authority should be left to commanders

01:00:40.012 --> 01:00:42.123
of you think that the current process

01:00:42.123 --> 01:00:44.179
increases the risk of unconscious or

01:00:44.179 --> 01:00:46.780
even overt bias within our military

01:00:46.780 --> 01:00:49.770
justices system ? And I'll just add my

01:00:49.770 --> 01:00:51.992
second question would be Do you believe

01:00:51.992 --> 01:00:54.048
that if the convening authority were

01:00:54.048 --> 01:00:56.270
transferred to a separatist city within

01:00:56.270 --> 01:00:58.437
the department , it could decrease the

01:00:58.437 --> 01:01:00.548
racial disparity highlighted in these

01:01:00.548 --> 01:01:04.310
reports ? Thank you for your question .

01:01:04.310 --> 01:01:07.800
While that is a core principle of mine

01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:11.240
is that the military go become part of

01:01:11.240 --> 01:01:13.610
the 21st century and have prosecutors

01:01:13.610 --> 01:01:16.480
make prosecution decisions versus

01:01:16.610 --> 01:01:19.860
convenient authorities . Uh uh , I

01:01:19.870 --> 01:01:22.037
think the command controlled system of

01:01:22.037 --> 01:01:24.230
military justice , as I talked about

01:01:24.230 --> 01:01:26.730
before they know the people involved ,

01:01:26.740 --> 01:01:29.060
it's going to cause a bias . No matter

01:01:29.060 --> 01:01:31.171
how good the Commander is , no matter

01:01:31.171 --> 01:01:34.650
how desires they are not having a

01:01:34.650 --> 01:01:36.483
bias , they're gonna have a bias

01:01:36.483 --> 01:01:38.372
because they know the people were

01:01:38.372 --> 01:01:40.483
making , uh uh that have been alleged

01:01:40.490 --> 01:01:43.090
committed a crime . I think that bias

01:01:43.090 --> 01:01:45.201
is going to carry over throughout the

01:01:45.201 --> 01:01:47.423
process because of the way the chain of

01:01:47.423 --> 01:01:49.090
command works . If you have a

01:01:49.090 --> 01:01:51.146
convenient authorities system , they

01:01:51.200 --> 01:01:53.033
wouldn't . You have a committing

01:01:53.033 --> 01:01:54.978
authority system . They weigh very

01:01:54.978 --> 01:01:57.089
heavily on the views of the commander

01:01:57.089 --> 01:01:59.640
who knows the people who have committed

01:01:59.640 --> 01:02:02.610
the crime , a prosecutor based system ,

01:02:02.800 --> 01:02:05.300
which is not perfect . No system is ,

01:02:05.600 --> 01:02:08.110
but a ZAY said before , when I

01:02:08.110 --> 01:02:10.500
prosecuted a case , first time I laid

01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:13.150
eyes on the accused is when I came to

01:02:13.150 --> 01:02:15.610
court , I didn't know they were . Brace

01:02:15.610 --> 01:02:17.499
wasn't an issue unless , for some

01:02:17.499 --> 01:02:19.554
reason , his identification issue as

01:02:19.554 --> 01:02:21.720
part of the report of investigation .

01:02:21.950 --> 01:02:24.330
And so I think it eliminate does not

01:02:24.330 --> 01:02:26.970
eliminate but reduces the chance that

01:02:26.980 --> 01:02:29.530
racial biases will impact the decision

01:02:29.530 --> 01:02:31.620
made by the person , citing whether

01:02:31.620 --> 01:02:34.820
case should go to trial or not . In her

01:02:34.820 --> 01:02:38.640
second question , what was your

01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:40.584
second question ? The straight and

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.800
thanks it was if I I think Colonel

01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:47.022
Persons answered it , but it was , If ,

01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:49.820
um , if he believes that the convening

01:02:49.820 --> 01:02:51.987
authority would transfer to a separate

01:02:51.987 --> 01:02:54.209
entity within the department , it would

01:02:54.209 --> 01:02:56.376
decrease the racial disparity . Um , I

01:02:56.376 --> 01:02:58.598
last Miss Carroll if he has anything to

01:02:58.598 --> 01:03:00.920
add . Otherwise , I do have , um Maybe

01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:03.430
just another follow up . Go right ahead .

01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:07.480
Thank you . I would say to answer your

01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:09.560
question , we need to see DVDs

01:03:09.560 --> 01:03:12.160
evaluation off the causes of

01:03:12.160 --> 01:03:14.420
disparities at these different stages

01:03:14.420 --> 01:03:17.670
in order to ah , pinpoint exactly what

01:03:17.680 --> 01:03:19.902
needs to be done in terms of correction

01:03:19.902 --> 01:03:21.902
along the lines that you're talking

01:03:21.902 --> 01:03:25.640
about that are the

01:03:25.640 --> 01:03:27.800
commanders today who are holding

01:03:28.180 --> 01:03:29.902
convening authority . Are they

01:03:29.902 --> 01:03:31.958
receiving training on these issues ?

01:03:31.958 --> 01:03:34.069
Are Are we arming them with the tools

01:03:34.069 --> 01:03:36.069
to recognize racial disparities and

01:03:36.069 --> 01:03:38.080
ethnic inequity so that they may

01:03:38.080 --> 01:03:41.530
address them appropriately ? Well ,

01:03:41.540 --> 01:03:43.980
uh , that's probably question better

01:03:43.980 --> 01:03:47.090
for the other panel to answer . My

01:03:47.090 --> 01:03:49.640
understanding is the Air Force has said

01:03:49.640 --> 01:03:52.290
they are now doing that . I don't know

01:03:52.340 --> 01:03:54.960
about . As the jail report found in May

01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.500
of 2019 it doesn't seem like anything

01:03:57.500 --> 01:04:00.750
had been done by that time to find

01:04:00.750 --> 01:04:02.300
causes or solutions .

01:04:05.850 --> 01:04:08.270
Okay . Thank you always for Channel two .

01:04:08.420 --> 01:04:10.760
I yield back . Thank you . Mr a hen .

01:04:10.810 --> 01:04:13.380
Mr . Brown , you're recognized for five

01:04:13.380 --> 01:04:14.380
minutes .

01:04:18.590 --> 01:04:20.880
Thank you , Madam Chair . And thank you

01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:23.170
for allowing me to waive onto this

01:04:23.250 --> 01:04:25.200
panel . I'm going to have a longer

01:04:25.200 --> 01:04:27.200
statement to make before the second

01:04:27.200 --> 01:04:29.390
pounds . So I just jump into some

01:04:29.390 --> 01:04:32.420
questions for a Panelist for Colonel

01:04:32.430 --> 01:04:34.541
Christiansen and Miss Farrell . Thank

01:04:34.541 --> 01:04:36.597
you for being here . I guess this is

01:04:36.597 --> 01:04:38.790
the concern I have are looking at what

01:04:38.790 --> 01:04:42.270
we did in the end . Ea that ask g a o

01:04:42.270 --> 01:04:46.080
to study this issue on then in the nd a

01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:49.080
putting to the d o d to come back with

01:04:49.080 --> 01:04:51.247
a an assessment of what the cause is .

01:04:51.247 --> 01:04:53.610
All are on . Here's the concern I have .

01:04:53.610 --> 01:04:55.943
So I need some help . Carnal Christians .

01:04:55.943 --> 01:04:58.200
And you said that you have you

01:04:58.210 --> 01:05:01.170
witnessed the case Where a black man

01:05:01.170 --> 01:05:04.240
with six a minutes late for formation ,

01:05:04.390 --> 01:05:06.557
He was court martialed . You never saw

01:05:06.557 --> 01:05:09.560
that with a white service member when

01:05:09.560 --> 01:05:11.800
you talk about implicit racial bias ,

01:05:12.390 --> 01:05:14.612
Typically , in that case , if you would

01:05:14.612 --> 01:05:16.723
have brought to that Commander Halo ,

01:05:16.890 --> 01:05:19.001
you just sent the court martial black

01:05:19.010 --> 01:05:22.360
guy . And in the last month , we've had

01:05:22.370 --> 01:05:24.950
re white guys six minutes , seven

01:05:24.950 --> 01:05:27.117
minutes , 10 minutes late . You didn't

01:05:27.117 --> 01:05:29.750
do it often with implicit bias . That

01:05:29.750 --> 01:05:31.920
commander might say Ah , wow . You're

01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:34.310
right . let me take a look . It's often

01:05:34.310 --> 01:05:36.421
benign . It's unknown when brought to

01:05:36.421 --> 01:05:39.200
the attention of the of the offender ,

01:05:39.200 --> 01:05:41.480
if you will , they're willing to make

01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:44.600
corrective action from everything . Mr

01:05:44.600 --> 01:05:46.600
Christian . That's in that you said

01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:50.420
about your efforts to get information

01:05:50.420 --> 01:05:52.960
from d o D their unwillingness toe

01:05:52.970 --> 01:05:56.800
Explore the causes of this disparate

01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.200
racial impact . The military . Justin

01:05:59.570 --> 01:06:03.300
I'm concerned that in the G A o

01:06:03.310 --> 01:06:07.200
study were put into the d o d too much

01:06:07.200 --> 01:06:09.760
responsibility to come up with

01:06:09.770 --> 01:06:11.437
guidelines for how to address

01:06:11.437 --> 01:06:14.330
disparities , discover or research the

01:06:14.330 --> 01:06:17.140
causes of disparity and develop a

01:06:17.150 --> 01:06:20.710
uniform set of of demographic criteria

01:06:20.710 --> 01:06:22.790
or classifications so we can better

01:06:22.790 --> 01:06:25.020
understand it . Here's my question .

01:06:25.290 --> 01:06:28.830
What can Congress do today to ensure

01:06:28.830 --> 01:06:31.300
that D . O . D is doing these things in

01:06:31.300 --> 01:06:33.740
the jail report that gets beyond the

01:06:33.740 --> 01:06:35.700
resistance that you and your

01:06:35.700 --> 01:06:37.756
organization current question should

01:06:37.756 --> 01:06:39.756
have seen What ? What ? Some what ?

01:06:39.756 --> 01:06:41.940
Some specific things that we should be

01:06:41.940 --> 01:06:45.920
doing . Well , great . Excuse me .

01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:48.031
Great start is what we're doing right

01:06:48.031 --> 01:06:50.198
now . Uh , it's definitely putting the

01:06:50.198 --> 01:06:51.920
d o d . I noticed that this is

01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:54.142
something Congress is concerned about ,

01:06:54.142 --> 01:06:56.370
but I think Congress needs to send a

01:06:56.370 --> 01:07:00.060
message to the various services that

01:07:00.070 --> 01:07:03.060
they do not expect that this is going

01:07:03.060 --> 01:07:06.010
to be pay quick solution . So , for

01:07:06.010 --> 01:07:08.121
example , my understanding is the Air

01:07:08.121 --> 01:07:10.560
Force I G wants to have the

01:07:10.560 --> 01:07:12.838
investigation wrapped a pied into July .

01:07:12.838 --> 01:07:15.004
That's ridiculous . You know , this is

01:07:15.004 --> 01:07:17.004
a decades long problem . You're not

01:07:17.004 --> 01:07:19.060
going to find problems and solutions

01:07:19.060 --> 01:07:22.130
and causes in two months . The second

01:07:22.130 --> 01:07:24.910
thing is that Congress needs to make

01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:27.590
clear to the D . O . D that they expect

01:07:27.590 --> 01:07:29.812
him to be reaching the outside entities

01:07:29.812 --> 01:07:31.646
to help with the solution . True

01:07:31.646 --> 01:07:34.330
experts on disparity true experts on

01:07:34.330 --> 01:07:37.440
what causes racial buys true experts on

01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:40.500
finding racial discrimination . And

01:07:40.500 --> 01:07:44.120
then Aziz has been required in the most

01:07:44.120 --> 01:07:46.231
recent nd a that they continue report

01:07:46.231 --> 01:07:48.287
back to Congress with the same vigor

01:07:48.287 --> 01:07:51.090
that they do with sexual assault report

01:07:51.240 --> 01:07:53.351
that is released each year . That has

01:07:53.351 --> 01:07:55.462
to have the same kind of detail , the

01:07:55.462 --> 01:07:57.940
same kind of depth to it , thankful

01:07:58.660 --> 01:08:02.480
this is Miss Farrell . Well , a pick

01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:04.680
up where the superstars left off in

01:08:04.680 --> 01:08:06.920
terms of external reporting . That's

01:08:06.930 --> 01:08:10.480
that's one of the recommendations that

01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:13.360
we have seen progress on in terms of D

01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:17.110
o d Will is expected to include

01:08:17.110 --> 01:08:19.430
because of the 2020 National Defense

01:08:19.430 --> 01:08:21.920
Authorization Act duties expected to

01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:24.350
include demographic information in its

01:08:24.350 --> 01:08:26.239
annual reports going forward . So

01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:27.906
that's going to help with the

01:08:27.906 --> 01:08:30.510
transparency , but it's still quite a

01:08:30.510 --> 01:08:32.420
ways off . I think congressional

01:08:32.420 --> 01:08:34.910
oversight , periodic congressional

01:08:34.910 --> 01:08:37.640
oversight is gonna be necessary . I

01:08:37.650 --> 01:08:40.150
agree that doing an evaluation of the

01:08:40.150 --> 01:08:42.317
causes , it's not something that could

01:08:42.317 --> 01:08:44.930
be done in just a few months

01:08:45.440 --> 01:08:49.220
having a prioritizing where DV is going

01:08:49.220 --> 01:08:51.700
to look at which stages in order to get

01:08:51.710 --> 01:08:54.660
behind and also bring in consultants

01:08:54.660 --> 01:08:57.520
gonna be very important . You know ,

01:08:57.530 --> 01:09:01.020
the Indy A Re Cars duty to commence the

01:09:01.020 --> 01:09:03.980
study for evaluating causes this month ,

01:09:04.260 --> 01:09:06.482
there's no in day again . It's gonna be

01:09:06.482 --> 01:09:09.000
very important , I think , for the

01:09:09.010 --> 01:09:10.843
House Armed Services Committee ,

01:09:10.843 --> 01:09:12.788
specifically this subcommittee and

01:09:12.788 --> 01:09:15.220
others to have you debrief or have have

01:09:15.220 --> 01:09:18.170
another hearing to understand what

01:09:18.170 --> 01:09:21.280
progress they're making toward that

01:09:21.290 --> 01:09:24.610
final report on the causes . Thank you .

01:09:24.620 --> 01:09:26.731
You back , man Chair , Thank you once

01:09:26.731 --> 01:09:28.564
again for allowing me to wave on

01:09:52.460 --> 01:09:54.740
at Special and General Court , martials

01:09:54.740 --> 01:09:56.740
remain about the same for black and

01:09:56.740 --> 01:09:58.460
white service members . Yet

01:09:58.460 --> 01:10:00.460
significantly more of Black service

01:10:00.460 --> 01:10:02.516
members are brought to court martial

01:10:02.650 --> 01:10:04.910
that appears to show two things . One

01:10:05.120 --> 01:10:07.440
that court martials are not convicting

01:10:07.440 --> 01:10:10.250
because of race but evidence . And to

01:10:10.260 --> 01:10:12.093
that , commanders are preferring

01:10:12.093 --> 01:10:14.204
charges on more Black service members

01:10:14.204 --> 01:10:16.580
for reasons other than the strong

01:10:16.580 --> 01:10:19.070
weight of evidence against them . I

01:10:19.070 --> 01:10:21.292
guess . Finally , let me just ask you ,

01:10:21.292 --> 01:10:23.403
Is that a fair statement ? I do think

01:10:23.403 --> 01:10:25.790
that's a fair statement . Uh , I I

01:10:25.790 --> 01:10:27.734
honestly believe our court members

01:10:27.734 --> 01:10:30.940
tried to do the right thing and that I

01:10:31.020 --> 01:10:33.580
don't believe I ever saw a single panel

01:10:33.580 --> 01:10:35.810
where I thought that they were racially

01:10:35.810 --> 01:10:38.990
driven in the verdict . I do worry

01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:41.620
again that the decision , really what

01:10:41.620 --> 01:10:45.210
we're talking about is that the White

01:10:45.210 --> 01:10:47.377
Service member gets the benefit of the

01:10:47.377 --> 01:10:49.640
doubt . Their case doesn't go for their

01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:51.862
cases handled at a different level than

01:10:51.862 --> 01:10:53.918
what the Black service members are .

01:10:54.160 --> 01:10:55.870
Thank you , Miss Farrell .

01:11:00.020 --> 01:11:02.131
I did not hear all of that question ,

01:11:02.131 --> 01:11:04.810
but I think you were asking questions

01:11:04.810 --> 01:11:07.100
related to what Joo identified at the

01:11:07.100 --> 01:11:08.989
beginning of the military justice

01:11:08.989 --> 01:11:11.211
process of what we see at the end , and

01:11:11.211 --> 01:11:13.433
it's quite a different picture as we've

01:11:13.433 --> 01:11:17.070
discussed , actions are more likely

01:11:17.260 --> 01:11:19.840
to be identified at the very beginning

01:11:19.850 --> 01:11:22.530
of the judicial process when a service

01:11:22.530 --> 01:11:24.840
member is under investigation . Five .

01:11:24.850 --> 01:11:27.600
When we look at outcomes in terms of

01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:30.190
convictions and punishments for

01:11:30.190 --> 01:11:32.950
convictions , we found that there was

01:11:32.950 --> 01:11:35.680
no statistically significant difference

01:11:35.690 --> 01:11:39.690
among races in terms of conviction

01:11:39.860 --> 01:11:42.500
and similar results for punishments .

01:11:42.580 --> 01:11:44.970
No statistically significant difference ,

01:11:45.170 --> 01:11:48.030
except for black service members in the

01:11:48.030 --> 01:11:51.300
Navy or less likely to be dismissed or

01:11:51.300 --> 01:11:54.200
discharged after a conviction so that

01:11:54.200 --> 01:11:57.820
there's the they're at opposite ends of

01:11:57.820 --> 01:11:59.987
what we see in terms of disparities in

01:11:59.987 --> 01:12:02.180
the beginning of the system and where

01:12:02.180 --> 01:12:04.660
we see them end up at the end . All

01:12:04.660 --> 01:12:06.827
right again , thank you both very much

01:12:06.827 --> 01:12:08.993
for your testimony . Will take a short

01:12:08.993 --> 01:12:11.216
recess so we can bring our second panel

01:12:11.450 --> 01:12:15.330
to the table and I'm here from

01:12:15.330 --> 01:12:16.330
them .

01:15:08.950 --> 01:15:11.061
Coming . We're going to go normally .

01:15:11.061 --> 01:15:13.228
Go left , right , right . Left because

01:15:13.510 --> 01:15:14.510
start small .

01:15:19.510 --> 01:15:22.920
Welcome back , everyone . We will bring

01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:25.230
this hearing to order once again , and

01:15:25.230 --> 01:15:28.370
it's my pleasure . Now to introduce our

01:15:28.370 --> 01:15:31.890
next panel . We will start with

01:15:31.890 --> 01:15:35.100
Lieutenant General Charles PD , Judge

01:15:35.100 --> 01:15:37.433
advocate General for United States Army ,

01:15:37.433 --> 01:15:39.730
followed by Vice Admiral John Han , IQ

01:15:40.070 --> 01:15:42.600
Judge advocate General of the U . S .

01:15:43.030 --> 01:15:45.910
Navy . Lieutenant Jeffrey , Lieutenant

01:15:45.910 --> 01:15:48.180
General Jeffrey Rockwell , Judge

01:15:48.180 --> 01:15:50.347
Advocate General for United States Air

01:15:50.347 --> 01:15:52.670
Force . And finally , Major General

01:15:53.020 --> 01:15:56.180
Daniel Lecce , the's staff judge

01:15:56.190 --> 01:15:58.079
advocate to the commandant of the

01:15:58.079 --> 01:16:00.500
Marine Corps , General OPD . We will

01:16:00.500 --> 01:16:01.500
begin with you

01:16:05.500 --> 01:16:07.722
ranking member Kelly and members of the

01:16:07.722 --> 01:16:09.444
committee . Thank you for this

01:16:09.444 --> 01:16:11.444
opportunity . I'm sorry , General .

01:16:11.444 --> 01:16:13.667
Could you move that microphone a little

01:16:13.667 --> 01:16:15.778
closer to you are Absolutely . How is

01:16:15.778 --> 01:16:17.460
that better ? Thank you . I'm

01:16:17.460 --> 01:16:19.571
Chairwoman Spear ranking Member Kelly

01:16:19.571 --> 01:16:21.627
and members of the committee . Thank

01:16:21.627 --> 01:16:23.849
you for this opportunity . We meet on a

01:16:23.849 --> 01:16:25.960
topic of vital importance to our army

01:16:25.960 --> 01:16:28.880
and to our nation . Ensuring that every

01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:30.713
soldier who swears to defend our

01:16:30.713 --> 01:16:32.870
Constitution is guaranteed its

01:16:32.870 --> 01:16:35.700
foundational promise equal , equal

01:16:35.700 --> 01:16:38.970
justice under the law . This has been

01:16:38.980 --> 01:16:41.490
my charter across 32 years of service .

01:16:41.790 --> 01:16:43.846
And it is the commitment of the Army

01:16:43.846 --> 01:16:46.012
Judge , Advocate , General's Corps and

01:16:46.012 --> 01:16:48.670
the Army leadership . As recent events

01:16:48.680 --> 01:16:50.569
make clear , that promise remains

01:16:50.569 --> 01:16:52.680
unfilled for too many in our nation .

01:16:53.070 --> 01:16:55.320
Just two days ago , we in our army

01:16:55.320 --> 01:16:58.150
celebrated its 245th birthday

01:16:59.090 --> 01:17:01.312
because of the service and sacrifice of

01:17:01.312 --> 01:17:03.430
many . I believe that today our army

01:17:03.430 --> 01:17:05.990
represents our country's best ideals

01:17:06.320 --> 01:17:09.190
more than ever . Yet I also believe

01:17:09.200 --> 01:17:11.280
that , like the country we serve ,

01:17:11.290 --> 01:17:13.830
there is still much more that must be

01:17:13.830 --> 01:17:17.660
done . Are hearing today reminds us of

01:17:17.660 --> 01:17:19.604
the origins of our uniform code of

01:17:19.604 --> 01:17:22.170
military justice . It was born out of a

01:17:22.170 --> 01:17:24.460
concern for fundamental fairness for

01:17:24.460 --> 01:17:26.860
those suspected of a crime . Our codes

01:17:26.860 --> 01:17:28.890
due process guarantees , zealous

01:17:28.890 --> 01:17:31.630
defense , impartial judges and robust

01:17:31.630 --> 01:17:34.240
appellate review Our it's cornerstones

01:17:34.780 --> 01:17:37.002
over the years , and thanks to the work

01:17:37.002 --> 01:17:39.130
of many on this committee , the code

01:17:39.130 --> 01:17:41.390
has been reformed and improved , while

01:17:41.390 --> 01:17:43.112
its central purposes have been

01:17:43.112 --> 01:17:45.440
preserved , promoting justice while

01:17:45.440 --> 01:17:47.440
ensuring discipline . These are the

01:17:47.440 --> 01:17:49.340
pillars upon which our combat

01:17:49.340 --> 01:17:51.510
effectiveness rests , and they're the

01:17:51.510 --> 01:17:53.780
reasons why our army is the best in the

01:17:53.780 --> 01:17:56.480
world . But as good as our justice

01:17:56.480 --> 01:17:58.369
system is , we can never take for

01:17:58.369 --> 01:18:01.150
granted its health or its fairness . It

01:18:01.150 --> 01:18:04.510
requires constant care by well trained

01:18:04.510 --> 01:18:06.760
law enforcement , educated commanders

01:18:06.820 --> 01:18:09.730
and qualified attorneys . Working

01:18:09.730 --> 01:18:12.550
together with the Congress , we have

01:18:12.550 --> 01:18:14.717
brought our justice system much closer

01:18:14.717 --> 01:18:16.550
to the full realization of equal

01:18:16.550 --> 01:18:19.950
justice . For all that close is never

01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:22.890
good enough . In May 2019 the G A o

01:18:22.890 --> 01:18:25.112
found racial disparities in our justice

01:18:25.112 --> 01:18:27.360
system . While it reached no conclusion

01:18:27.360 --> 01:18:29.430
on the causes of these disparities ,

01:18:29.430 --> 01:18:31.708
this report raises difficult questions ,

01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:34.890
questions that demand answers . Sitting

01:18:34.890 --> 01:18:36.779
here today , we do not have those

01:18:36.779 --> 01:18:39.820
answers . So our task is to ask the

01:18:39.820 --> 01:18:42.430
right questions and find the answers .

01:18:42.970 --> 01:18:45.303
I'm joined by my partner in this effort ,

01:18:45.303 --> 01:18:47.840
Major General , the Army's provost ,

01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:49.896
Marshal General , my partner in this

01:18:49.896 --> 01:18:51.896
effort , Major General Kevin Marine

01:18:51.920 --> 01:18:54.142
General Marine supervisors are military

01:18:54.142 --> 01:18:56.960
police , our criminal investigators in

01:18:56.960 --> 01:18:59.880
our criminal laboratory based on the G .

01:18:59.880 --> 01:19:01.713
A . O s findings . The effort to

01:19:01.713 --> 01:19:03.436
examine our system is a shared

01:19:03.700 --> 01:19:06.720
responsibility with us and with our

01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:09.740
commanders . As we assess this issue ,

01:19:09.740 --> 01:19:11.610
from investigations to command

01:19:11.610 --> 01:19:14.830
decisions to the disposition phase , we

01:19:14.830 --> 01:19:16.941
must do so with a common framework in

01:19:16.941 --> 01:19:19.100
the right stakeholders . That effort

01:19:19.100 --> 01:19:21.322
must start with seeing ourselves . This

01:19:21.322 --> 01:19:23.544
began last year's we began implementing

01:19:23.544 --> 01:19:25.767
the G . A . O s recommendations . We're

01:19:25.767 --> 01:19:27.989
also working with the other services to

01:19:27.989 --> 01:19:30.211
execute section 5 40 i of the N d . A .

01:19:30.211 --> 01:19:32.890
That now visionary statute directs us

01:19:32.890 --> 01:19:35.820
to identify , investigate and resolve

01:19:35.820 --> 01:19:37.770
potential disparities in justice .

01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:39.960
Finally , we continue to improve our

01:19:39.960 --> 01:19:42.020
internal data sharing . Recently ,

01:19:42.020 --> 01:19:44.242
General Verena and I established a link

01:19:44.242 --> 01:19:46.298
between his law enforcement database

01:19:46.298 --> 01:19:48.409
and our justice database , allowing a

01:19:48.409 --> 01:19:50.131
degree of interoperability and

01:19:50.131 --> 01:19:52.298
transparency that never existed before

01:19:52.298 --> 01:19:54.520
these efforts began . Before the recent

01:19:54.520 --> 01:19:56.187
tragic events in the national

01:19:56.187 --> 01:19:58.298
conversation that followed our nation

01:19:58.298 --> 01:20:00.187
or followed across our nation and

01:20:00.187 --> 01:20:01.964
within our formations . As that

01:20:01.964 --> 01:20:04.530
conversation demonstrates , data alone

01:20:04.700 --> 01:20:07.250
cannot tell the full story . We must

01:20:07.250 --> 01:20:09.083
look beyond the data and ask the

01:20:09.083 --> 01:20:11.360
difficult questions . General Marine

01:20:11.360 --> 01:20:13.527
and I , along with Army leaders , need

01:20:13.527 --> 01:20:15.780
to look hard it ourselves with

01:20:15.780 --> 01:20:18.113
commanders . We must look at the causes ,

01:20:18.680 --> 01:20:20.360
and we must understand how

01:20:20.360 --> 01:20:22.582
preconceptions and prejudice can affect

01:20:22.582 --> 01:20:24.900
both the investigation in disposition

01:20:24.900 --> 01:20:27.100
of misconduct . What makes your

01:20:27.110 --> 01:20:28.832
experience tells me we have an

01:20:28.832 --> 01:20:30.721
extraordinarily healthy system of

01:20:30.721 --> 01:20:32.943
justice . I also recognize we simply do

01:20:32.943 --> 01:20:35.590
not know what we do not know , and it

01:20:35.590 --> 01:20:37.479
is our job to discover what needs

01:20:37.479 --> 01:20:40.530
fixing and to fix it . To do this ,

01:20:40.570 --> 01:20:42.280
I've directed a comprehensive

01:20:42.280 --> 01:20:44.447
assessment with the provost , Marshall

01:20:44.447 --> 01:20:47.220
General , to get left of the allegation

01:20:47.230 --> 01:20:49.940
left of the disposition decision to

01:20:49.940 --> 01:20:52.870
examine why the justice system is more

01:20:52.870 --> 01:20:55.037
likely to investigate certain soldiers

01:20:55.340 --> 01:20:57.451
in what our investigations in command

01:20:57.451 --> 01:20:59.507
decisions tell us about this issue .

01:21:00.310 --> 01:21:02.366
Finally , we know that each of us is

01:21:02.366 --> 01:21:04.254
shaped by our own backgrounds and

01:21:04.254 --> 01:21:06.199
experiences as the secretary , our

01:21:06.199 --> 01:21:08.310
chief and our Sergeant Major recently

01:21:08.310 --> 01:21:10.532
reminded us in which I echoed in my own

01:21:10.532 --> 01:21:12.532
message to my core . Leaders of all

01:21:12.532 --> 01:21:14.760
ranks must listen with compassion and

01:21:14.760 --> 01:21:17.330
humility . I believe our justice system

01:21:17.330 --> 01:21:19.552
is one of the best in the world , but I

01:21:19.552 --> 01:21:21.774
also know it is not perfect . A justice

01:21:21.774 --> 01:21:25.340
system must be both just four and seem

01:21:25.340 --> 01:21:28.250
to be just by all . We have much to

01:21:28.250 --> 01:21:30.310
learn and more work to do . General

01:21:30.310 --> 01:21:32.254
Verena and I , along with the Army

01:21:32.254 --> 01:21:34.310
leadership , look forward to working

01:21:34.310 --> 01:21:36.421
with this committee to understand the

01:21:36.421 --> 01:21:38.643
problem and to address it . Thank you .

01:21:38.643 --> 01:21:40.810
Thank you , General PD Admiral Hammock

01:21:43.800 --> 01:21:45.744
Heroines Beer ranking member Kelly

01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:48.102
Thank you for the invitation to testify

01:21:48.500 --> 01:21:50.500
on the issue of racial disparity of

01:21:50.500 --> 01:21:53.580
military Justice Department . Navy

01:21:53.580 --> 01:21:56.440
guidance emphasizes several things

01:21:56.440 --> 01:21:59.510
about equal opportunity . The first is

01:21:59.510 --> 01:22:02.220
that sailors and Marines are our most

01:22:02.220 --> 01:22:05.050
precious resource . Second , that

01:22:05.060 --> 01:22:07.020
unlawful discrimination undermines

01:22:07.020 --> 01:22:09.220
unit's ability to function effectively

01:22:09.870 --> 01:22:12.760
and cannot be tolerated . And third ,

01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:15.190
that we must overcome any bias or any

01:22:15.190 --> 01:22:18.530
stereotype that diminishes cohesiveness .

01:22:19.070 --> 01:22:22.870
Camaraderie for morale . In a

01:22:22.870 --> 01:22:24.981
recent message to the fleet . Emerald

01:22:24.981 --> 01:22:27.314
Gil Day , the chief of naval operations ,

01:22:27.314 --> 01:22:30.930
commented on this , he said , In the

01:22:30.930 --> 01:22:32.930
Navy , we talk a lot about treating

01:22:32.930 --> 01:22:35.240
people with dignity and respect . In

01:22:35.240 --> 01:22:37.900
fact , we demand it . It's one of the

01:22:37.900 --> 01:22:41.510
things that makes us a great navy and

01:22:41.510 --> 01:22:43.930
then observing recent events in our

01:22:43.930 --> 01:22:47.620
nation , Emerald Guilty added . We

01:22:47.620 --> 01:22:49.787
can't be under any illusions about the

01:22:49.787 --> 01:22:53.290
fact that racism is alive and well in

01:22:53.290 --> 01:22:56.110
our country , and I can't be under any

01:22:56.110 --> 01:22:59.030
illusions that we don't have it in or

01:22:59.030 --> 01:23:02.910
Navy . We cannot have those illusions .

01:23:04.040 --> 01:23:05.873
And so the Navy emphatically and

01:23:05.873 --> 01:23:09.070
unequivocally denounces racism . It is

01:23:09.070 --> 01:23:11.380
anti technical toe , our core values of

01:23:11.380 --> 01:23:15.190
honor , courage and commitment . It is

01:23:15.190 --> 01:23:17.210
antithetical to our obligation of

01:23:17.210 --> 01:23:19.980
service members to support and defend

01:23:19.980 --> 01:23:22.600
the Constitution and to help protect

01:23:22.600 --> 01:23:25.120
the rights afforded to all Americans .

01:23:26.930 --> 01:23:28.763
The military justice system must

01:23:28.763 --> 01:23:30.910
operate without discrimination .

01:23:31.500 --> 01:23:35.000
Without racism , all sailors must to be

01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:37.222
able to have confidence in the fairness

01:23:37.222 --> 01:23:41.010
of the system . The May 2019 Geo report

01:23:41.020 --> 01:23:43.187
identified some disparities related to

01:23:43.187 --> 01:23:47.140
race and ethnicity to summarize those

01:23:47.290 --> 01:23:50.430
that were identified for the navy black

01:23:50.430 --> 01:23:52.380
sailors , more likely than whites

01:23:52.380 --> 01:23:54.158
sailors to be the subject of an

01:23:54.158 --> 01:23:56.700
investigation in the database used by

01:23:56.700 --> 01:23:58.533
the Naval Criminal Investigative

01:23:58.533 --> 01:24:00.790
Service and other Navy law enforcement

01:24:00.870 --> 01:24:03.980
elements , the same for Hispanic

01:24:04.170 --> 01:24:07.070
service members . Black sailors were

01:24:07.070 --> 01:24:09.292
also more likely than whites sailors to

01:24:09.292 --> 01:24:11.780
be tried by a general or special court

01:24:11.780 --> 01:24:15.370
martial . So we're Hispanic sailors .

01:24:16.590 --> 01:24:18.740
When it came to assessing the results

01:24:18.750 --> 01:24:21.130
of court martial , there was no

01:24:21.130 --> 01:24:23.074
significant difference between the

01:24:23.074 --> 01:24:25.320
conviction rates for black , Hispanic

01:24:25.330 --> 01:24:28.440
or white sailor's . And as the GL

01:24:28.440 --> 01:24:31.930
witness noted on the last panel for

01:24:31.930 --> 01:24:34.152
those found guilty , black sailors were

01:24:34.152 --> 01:24:36.208
less likely than whites . Sailors to

01:24:36.208 --> 01:24:38.430
receive the punishment , have discharge

01:24:38.430 --> 01:24:42.340
or dismissal . The jail was correct

01:24:42.580 --> 01:24:44.413
that there may be disparities at

01:24:44.413 --> 01:24:46.469
different points in the system , and

01:24:46.469 --> 01:24:48.691
and we appreciate the recommendations .

01:24:48.691 --> 01:24:51.520
They made toe help when those air

01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:53.409
combined with the requirements of

01:24:53.409 --> 01:24:57.310
Section 5 40 i of the F y 20 nd a . My

01:24:57.310 --> 01:24:59.430
hope is that will result in improved

01:24:59.430 --> 01:25:02.430
data collection a process to determine

01:25:02.430 --> 01:25:05.300
when that data should be reviewed and

01:25:05.300 --> 01:25:08.600
an evaluation to identify the causes of

01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:11.490
the disparities they're regarding data

01:25:11.490 --> 01:25:13.830
collection . The Navy and Marine Corps

01:25:13.830 --> 01:25:16.052
case management system has been updated

01:25:16.390 --> 01:25:18.390
to collect the race , ethnicity and

01:25:18.390 --> 01:25:20.557
gender of victims and accused for each

01:25:20.557 --> 01:25:24.080
general and special court martial . I

01:25:24.080 --> 01:25:27.220
have more work to do in two areas . The

01:25:27.220 --> 01:25:29.442
first relates to summary courts martial

01:25:30.190 --> 01:25:32.370
because the Navy prosecution office is

01:25:32.370 --> 01:25:35.110
also often or not involved directly in

01:25:35.110 --> 01:25:37.340
the summary courts martial , and we are

01:25:37.340 --> 01:25:39.580
reviewing procedures needed to collect

01:25:39.580 --> 01:25:42.890
the associated data . And as the J . A

01:25:42.890 --> 01:25:45.380
witness observed , the second relates

01:25:45.380 --> 01:25:47.710
to nonjudicial punishment . They

01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:50.010
recommended the Navy consider how we

01:25:50.010 --> 01:25:52.121
might maintain nonjudicial punishment

01:25:52.121 --> 01:25:54.480
information in a database and how to

01:25:54.480 --> 01:25:56.591
implement this recommendation remains

01:25:56.591 --> 01:26:00.030
under review . The Navy is also taking

01:26:00.030 --> 01:26:02.160
steps to prevent racial bias through

01:26:02.160 --> 01:26:05.990
training . This is not a panacea , but

01:26:05.990 --> 01:26:09.030
we can't let up . The Naval Leadership

01:26:09.030 --> 01:26:11.141
in Ethics Center provides training on

01:26:11.141 --> 01:26:12.974
unconscious bias for prospective

01:26:12.974 --> 01:26:14.752
commanding officers , executive

01:26:14.752 --> 01:26:18.370
officers and other leaders . The Naval

01:26:18.370 --> 01:26:20.481
Criminal Investigative Service trains

01:26:20.481 --> 01:26:22.980
agents on diversity and inclusion on

01:26:22.980 --> 01:26:25.200
unconscious bias and cross cultural

01:26:25.200 --> 01:26:27.740
communications to prevent racial

01:26:27.740 --> 01:26:31.570
profiling in investigations . We also

01:26:31.570 --> 01:26:33.681
provided training on unconscious bias

01:26:33.681 --> 01:26:36.170
and inclusion and diversity within the

01:26:36.170 --> 01:26:37.892
Judge . Africa Journalist Core

01:26:37.892 --> 01:26:41.660
Community . The Navy is committed to

01:26:41.660 --> 01:26:43.882
ensuring the military justice system is

01:26:43.882 --> 01:26:47.010
fair for everyone . Now look forward to

01:26:47.010 --> 01:26:49.360
working with you to improve our data

01:26:49.360 --> 01:26:52.490
collection and to identify , understand

01:26:52.490 --> 01:26:54.900
and address these disparities . Thank

01:26:54.900 --> 01:26:56.900
you . Thank you , Admiral . Panic .

01:26:57.230 --> 01:27:00.100
General Rockwell . Madam Chair Spirit .

01:27:00.940 --> 01:27:02.440
Thank . Remember , Kelly .

01:27:02.440 --> 01:27:04.496
Distinguished members . Thank you so

01:27:04.496 --> 01:27:06.718
much for the opportunity to address the

01:27:06.718 --> 01:27:08.551
importance of eradicating racial

01:27:08.551 --> 01:27:10.440
disparity in our military justice

01:27:10.440 --> 01:27:12.551
system to ensure fairness , inclusion

01:27:12.551 --> 01:27:14.551
and diversity for all air and space

01:27:14.551 --> 01:27:16.551
professionals in the department Air

01:27:16.551 --> 01:27:18.940
Force , an inclusive and diverse force

01:27:19.230 --> 01:27:21.730
is absolutely necessary to defend a

01:27:21.730 --> 01:27:24.420
diverse and inclusive nation . Like

01:27:24.420 --> 01:27:26.587
many of our civilian counterparts , we

01:27:26.587 --> 01:27:28.642
collect data on race in the military

01:27:28.642 --> 01:27:30.753
justice process . Our data shows that

01:27:30.753 --> 01:27:33.330
black male airman below the rank of e

01:27:33.330 --> 01:27:35.750
five and with less than five years ,

01:27:35.750 --> 01:27:38.220
time and service are almost two times

01:27:38.220 --> 01:27:40.250
more likely to receive nonjudicial

01:27:40.250 --> 01:27:43.600
punishment on Article 15 or face courts

01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:46.150
martial . While we review specific

01:27:46.150 --> 01:27:48.520
cases to ensure there is not the spirit

01:27:48.520 --> 01:27:51.250
treatment based on protected class , we

01:27:51.250 --> 01:27:53.417
don't have clear answers or underlying

01:27:53.417 --> 01:27:56.600
reasons as to why the disparity exists .

01:27:57.180 --> 01:27:59.291
Like all difficult issues that nation

01:27:59.291 --> 01:28:01.220
faces solutions to address that

01:28:01.220 --> 01:28:03.640
disparity will require a whole of

01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:06.800
government and societal approaches . We

01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:09.022
are committed to working with you to be

01:28:09.022 --> 01:28:11.150
part of that solution throughout our

01:28:11.150 --> 01:28:13.372
history . We have defended the nation ,

01:28:13.372 --> 01:28:15.594
fought and won our wars because of four

01:28:15.594 --> 01:28:18.050
simple yet key components . First , the

01:28:18.050 --> 01:28:20.460
best people second , the best training .

01:28:20.760 --> 01:28:22.816
Third , the best equipment and forth

01:28:22.816 --> 01:28:24.927
The most important element that binds

01:28:24.927 --> 01:28:28.000
us together . Discipline , discipline

01:28:28.000 --> 01:28:30.056
lies at the heart of with the nation

01:28:30.056 --> 01:28:31.778
expects of its military in the

01:28:31.778 --> 01:28:33.667
execution of our national defense

01:28:33.667 --> 01:28:35.889
missions . Discipline must be developed

01:28:35.889 --> 01:28:38.340
from Day one . Discipline must also be

01:28:38.350 --> 01:28:41.260
earned by the military establishment by

01:28:41.260 --> 01:28:43.093
treating all of our members with

01:28:43.093 --> 01:28:44.816
dignity and respect with equal

01:28:44.816 --> 01:28:47.010
opportunity to meet and exceed

01:28:47.010 --> 01:28:49.420
standards . We try to do that through

01:28:49.420 --> 01:28:51.930
inclusion , feedback , mentoring ,

01:28:52.160 --> 01:28:54.140
along with the administration of

01:28:54.140 --> 01:28:56.710
progressive discipline . When airman

01:28:56.720 --> 01:28:59.950
make mistakes before they become a

01:28:59.950 --> 01:29:02.310
disciplinary statistic . As our

01:29:02.310 --> 01:29:04.477
secretary and chiefs recently stated ,

01:29:05.270 --> 01:29:07.890
our diversity strengthens us as much as

01:29:07.900 --> 01:29:10.530
our common mission unifies us , the

01:29:10.530 --> 01:29:12.641
department Air Force strives to false

01:29:12.641 --> 01:29:14.770
foster a culture of inclusion and

01:29:14.770 --> 01:29:17.270
respect where every airman and space

01:29:17.270 --> 01:29:19.510
professional is valued for the talents

01:29:19.520 --> 01:29:21.576
he or she brings to the department ,

01:29:21.790 --> 01:29:24.710
regardless of race , color or creed ,

01:29:25.470 --> 01:29:27.581
our struggle against racism and other

01:29:27.581 --> 01:29:29.470
forms of discrimination cannot be

01:29:29.470 --> 01:29:31.710
viewed as finite battles . Rather , our

01:29:31.710 --> 01:29:34.030
approach must be infinite a constant

01:29:34.080 --> 01:29:36.220
struggle for betterment . When

01:29:36.220 --> 01:29:38.442
President Truman signed Executive Order

01:29:38.442 --> 01:29:41.930
9981 in 1948 he set in motion racial

01:29:41.930 --> 01:29:44.680
integration of our armed forces . 25

01:29:44.680 --> 01:29:47.350
years later , in 1972 Task Force found

01:29:47.620 --> 01:29:50.210
intentional and systemic discrimination

01:29:50.480 --> 01:29:52.840
in the military justice system . Many

01:29:52.840 --> 01:29:54.960
of the proposals identified then were

01:29:54.960 --> 01:29:57.470
adopted today . While we believe that

01:29:57.470 --> 01:29:59.290
we no longer have intentional

01:29:59.290 --> 01:30:01.530
discrimination in our processes , the

01:30:01.530 --> 01:30:04.240
fact is that racial disparity in the

01:30:04.240 --> 01:30:07.280
aggregate persists . This demonstrates

01:30:07.280 --> 01:30:09.391
the complex and challenging nature of

01:30:09.391 --> 01:30:11.502
the issue , symptomatic or indicative

01:30:11.502 --> 01:30:13.558
of one of many symptoms . A daunting

01:30:13.558 --> 01:30:16.070
problem , but one that should not stop

01:30:16.070 --> 01:30:18.820
us from exploring what we can do in the

01:30:18.820 --> 01:30:21.330
disciplinary process to service part of

01:30:21.330 --> 01:30:23.810
the solution set addressing it requires

01:30:23.810 --> 01:30:26.370
a holistic approach Every day across

01:30:26.370 --> 01:30:28.426
the continuum of discipline , we are

01:30:28.426 --> 01:30:30.950
committed to finding new solutions and

01:30:30.950 --> 01:30:33.670
approaches every air and space

01:30:33.670 --> 01:30:35.726
professional , military and civilian

01:30:35.726 --> 01:30:37.948
from the most senior to the most Junior

01:30:38.140 --> 01:30:40.270
is responsible for fostering and

01:30:40.270 --> 01:30:42.530
reinforcing a culture of inclusion ,

01:30:42.940 --> 01:30:45.780
dignity and respect . Like everything

01:30:45.780 --> 01:30:48.002
we do in the military . This requires a

01:30:48.002 --> 01:30:50.169
team effort , especially to get to the

01:30:50.169 --> 01:30:52.590
root causes of this difficult problem

01:30:53.360 --> 01:30:56.040
we can frame an approach by asking

01:30:56.040 --> 01:30:59.890
ourselves four juxtaposing questions

01:31:00.550 --> 01:31:03.680
First , While easy to say , our data

01:31:03.680 --> 01:31:05.990
merely reflects or is perhaps better

01:31:05.990 --> 01:31:08.101
than the society from where we come ,

01:31:08.760 --> 01:31:11.280
what can we do in the armed services ?

01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:13.640
Second , while easy to say , the

01:31:13.640 --> 01:31:16.320
specific cases show no actual disparate

01:31:16.320 --> 01:31:19.700
treatment in the decision made , are we

01:31:19.700 --> 01:31:21.850
really including mentoring and

01:31:21.850 --> 01:31:23.906
administering progressive discipline

01:31:23.910 --> 01:31:27.020
equally toe all before they become an

01:31:27.020 --> 01:31:30.180
Article 15 or a court martial ? Third ,

01:31:30.860 --> 01:31:33.160
while easy to say , justice was color

01:31:33.160 --> 01:31:36.930
blind in each of the cases are there

01:31:36.940 --> 01:31:38.884
administrative and substantive due

01:31:38.884 --> 01:31:41.310
processes which are discriminatory in

01:31:41.310 --> 01:31:44.480
treatment or impact . And fourth ,

01:31:44.590 --> 01:31:46.900
finally , while easy to say , the data

01:31:46.900 --> 01:31:48.980
shows that the aggregate disparity

01:31:48.990 --> 01:31:52.230
disappears after the 1st 5 years in the

01:31:52.230 --> 01:31:56.030
force . What can we do to eradicate

01:31:56.030 --> 01:31:59.010
that disparity earlier and all together ,

01:31:59.960 --> 01:32:01.960
we look forward to working with the

01:32:01.960 --> 01:32:04.127
subcommittee on this very on this most

01:32:04.127 --> 01:32:06.670
important issue . Thank you . General

01:32:06.670 --> 01:32:08.300
Rockwell General Election ,

01:32:11.450 --> 01:32:13.672
Madam Chair Spare ranking member Kali ,

01:32:14.090 --> 01:32:16.201
Members of the Military Personnel Sub

01:32:16.201 --> 01:32:18.368
Committee Thank you for the invitation

01:32:18.368 --> 01:32:20.423
to represent the Marine Corps on the

01:32:20.423 --> 01:32:22.479
issue of racial disparity within the

01:32:22.479 --> 01:32:24.646
military justice system . Marine Corps

01:32:24.646 --> 01:32:26.534
is dedicated to ensuring equality

01:32:26.534 --> 01:32:28.479
throughout its ranks from the most

01:32:28.479 --> 01:32:30.423
junior Marine . Through our senior

01:32:30.423 --> 01:32:32.479
leadership , although we have come a

01:32:32.479 --> 01:32:34.646
long way , we recognize that much must

01:32:34.646 --> 01:32:36.923
must must be done . Several months ago ,

01:32:36.923 --> 01:32:39.090
the commandant sought a way forward to

01:32:39.090 --> 01:32:40.923
remove the public display of the

01:32:40.923 --> 01:32:42.923
Confederate battle flag from Marine

01:32:42.923 --> 01:32:44.868
Corps installations because of its

01:32:44.868 --> 01:32:46.979
divisiveness in association with hate

01:32:46.979 --> 01:32:49.290
and discrimination . Three weeks ago ,

01:32:49.310 --> 01:32:51.254
the Marine Corps issued a specific

01:32:51.254 --> 01:32:53.310
direction to the fleet to remove the

01:32:53.310 --> 01:32:55.532
Confederate battle flag from all Marine

01:32:55.532 --> 01:32:57.699
Corps installations across the globe .

01:32:57.980 --> 01:32:59.924
In his message to the Marine Corps

01:32:59.924 --> 01:33:02.091
regarding the Confederate battle flags

01:33:02.091 --> 01:33:04.202
removal comment , I stated Quote only

01:33:04.202 --> 01:33:05.820
as a unified force free of

01:33:05.820 --> 01:33:08.650
discrimination , racial inequality and

01:33:08.650 --> 01:33:10.761
prejudice come before demonstrate our

01:33:10.761 --> 01:33:12.890
core values and serve as the elite

01:33:12.900 --> 01:33:15.160
warfighting organization America

01:33:15.170 --> 01:33:18.640
requires and expects us to be . To that

01:33:18.640 --> 01:33:20.696
end , the commandant is committed to

01:33:20.696 --> 01:33:22.862
implementing the fighting's of the G A

01:33:22.862 --> 01:33:25.530
O before disparities . The Geo

01:33:25.530 --> 01:33:27.710
highlighted in our administration of

01:33:27.710 --> 01:33:29.932
the justice system and the Marine Corps

01:33:29.932 --> 01:33:32.410
require immediate scrutiny and demand

01:33:32.410 --> 01:33:34.990
action . The implicit trust Marines

01:33:34.990 --> 01:33:36.823
place in one either makes Yellen

01:33:36.823 --> 01:33:39.800
elimination of racial inequality and

01:33:39.800 --> 01:33:42.680
imperative as the common not stated any

01:33:42.680 --> 01:33:44.847
form of racial inequality , whether it

01:33:44.847 --> 01:33:47.990
be direct , indirect , intentional or

01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:50.600
unintentional threatens the cohesion of

01:33:50.600 --> 01:33:52.822
Marine Corps and must be addressed head

01:33:52.822 --> 01:33:54.820
on . The Geo published two

01:33:54.820 --> 01:33:56.987
recommendations specifically addressed

01:33:57.140 --> 01:34:00.740
to the apartment that Navy First . They

01:34:00.750 --> 01:34:02.917
recommended the highlight the need for

01:34:02.917 --> 01:34:05.139
our personnel investigation in military

01:34:05.139 --> 01:34:07.250
justice databases to use standardized

01:34:07.250 --> 01:34:09.910
data related to race , ethnicity and

01:34:09.910 --> 01:34:13.480
gender . Second and similarly focused

01:34:13.480 --> 01:34:15.480
on standardized data collection for

01:34:15.480 --> 01:34:17.500
nonjudicial punishments in summary

01:34:17.500 --> 01:34:19.810
courts martial . My written statement

01:34:19.810 --> 01:34:21.921
provides in greater detail the Marine

01:34:21.921 --> 01:34:23.810
Corps specific actions Intentions

01:34:23.920 --> 01:34:25.587
stemming from the G . A . O s

01:34:25.587 --> 01:34:27.690
recommendations improved at a

01:34:27.690 --> 01:34:29.990
collection brought about by changes

01:34:29.990 --> 01:34:31.860
within last year will help us to

01:34:31.860 --> 01:34:33.916
collectively in comparatively assess

01:34:33.916 --> 01:34:36.280
data to identify racial and ethnic

01:34:36.280 --> 01:34:39.010
disparities . But we will not wait for

01:34:39.010 --> 01:34:40.843
better data to address and fight

01:34:40.843 --> 01:34:43.420
inequality . Now , how we train ,

01:34:43.430 --> 01:34:45.541
educate and foster Marines within our

01:34:45.541 --> 01:34:47.520
core is paramount to ensuring the

01:34:47.520 --> 01:34:49.980
equality across are fighting force and

01:34:49.980 --> 01:34:52.036
within the military justice system .

01:34:52.540 --> 01:34:54.540
Training and education serve as the

01:34:54.540 --> 01:34:56.920
fundamental components of eliminating

01:34:56.920 --> 01:34:59.160
racial buys . To this end , the Marine

01:34:59.160 --> 01:35:01.820
Corps pursuing inclusion of unconscious

01:35:01.820 --> 01:35:04.870
bias training curriculum at every level ,

01:35:04.870 --> 01:35:07.180
professional development perspective

01:35:07.180 --> 01:35:09.400
commanders and senior enlisted leaders

01:35:09.500 --> 01:35:11.700
received training on bias awareness to

01:35:11.700 --> 01:35:13.890
the Marine Corps University . Junior

01:35:13.890 --> 01:35:15.946
Marines received comparable training

01:35:15.946 --> 01:35:18.350
from small unit leadership . Even our

01:35:18.350 --> 01:35:20.880
military justice have undergone similar

01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:22.991
training on unconscious bodies within

01:35:22.991 --> 01:35:25.680
the past year . Such training and

01:35:25.680 --> 01:35:28.270
decisive senior leader action such as

01:35:28.270 --> 01:35:30.437
the Confederate Battle flags removal ,

01:35:30.437 --> 01:35:32.214
may not resolve the disparities

01:35:32.214 --> 01:35:34.159
overnight , but our commitment and

01:35:34.159 --> 01:35:36.103
determination to ensuring equality

01:35:36.103 --> 01:35:38.400
among the range marine steadfast and

01:35:38.400 --> 01:35:40.289
enduring . Thank you . And I look

01:35:40.289 --> 01:35:42.289
forward to working with you on this

01:35:42.289 --> 01:35:45.980
important issue . Thank you , General

01:35:45.980 --> 01:35:47.702
Lecce . Thank you all for your

01:35:47.702 --> 01:35:50.450
testimony . I'd like to start by asking

01:35:50.460 --> 01:35:54.060
a simple question on transparency We

01:35:54.060 --> 01:35:57.720
work for the public and the

01:35:57.720 --> 01:36:01.510
fact that General Rockwell

01:36:01.670 --> 01:36:05.010
you fought the foyer requests from

01:36:05.010 --> 01:36:07.470
protect our defenders for over three

01:36:07.470 --> 01:36:10.510
years is deeply troubling to me .

01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:14.840
Especially when it

01:36:14.840 --> 01:36:17.480
was said by the judge that this Waas ,

01:36:17.790 --> 01:36:20.550
um on the the aftermath of the Air

01:36:20.550 --> 01:36:23.290
Force manpower found that racial

01:36:23.290 --> 01:36:26.220
disparities are consistent , persistent

01:36:26.260 --> 01:36:29.370
and getting worse . And the judge then

01:36:29.370 --> 01:36:31.940
said when they attempted to get

01:36:31.940 --> 01:36:34.051
information about what you were doing

01:36:34.051 --> 01:36:36.830
about that and you refuse the judge

01:36:36.830 --> 01:36:38.886
that this was an exercise which went

01:36:38.886 --> 01:36:41.790
nowhere . So tell me , and the American

01:36:41.790 --> 01:36:45.790
people . What was what was , um

01:36:46.330 --> 01:36:49.110
who has benefited by not being

01:36:49.110 --> 01:36:51.460
forthright in complying with the FOIA

01:36:51.460 --> 01:36:55.450
request ? Madam Chair Aziz , you

01:36:55.450 --> 01:36:57.700
know , with for you . And you know the

01:36:57.700 --> 01:36:59.867
exemptions under FOIA . And you know ,

01:36:59.867 --> 01:37:01.978
in this case which for your exemption

01:37:01.978 --> 01:37:04.450
was was invoked here it was the

01:37:04.450 --> 01:37:06.672
deliberative process . Pre decisional .

01:37:06.720 --> 01:37:08.980
Yeah , but that's always used when

01:37:09.160 --> 01:37:11.230
people don't want to comply with for

01:37:11.230 --> 01:37:13.600
you and when . Yes , man . And when we

01:37:13.600 --> 01:37:17.170
looked at the underlying root causes ,

01:37:17.630 --> 01:37:20.770
of course the data was was released and

01:37:20.780 --> 01:37:23.050
the data showed exactly what you

01:37:23.050 --> 01:37:25.290
explained . The underlying reason . The

01:37:25.290 --> 01:37:28.790
root causes of the 11 or 12

01:37:28.790 --> 01:37:30.957
people on the working group there were

01:37:30.957 --> 01:37:33.068
11 or 12 different answers as to what

01:37:33.068 --> 01:37:36.700
that root cause waas and that truly man

01:37:36.710 --> 01:37:40.450
did fall into why we protect that .

01:37:40.920 --> 01:37:43.198
Except you didn't do anything about it .

01:37:43.198 --> 01:37:45.580
That's the problem . You you stand up

01:37:45.580 --> 01:37:48.660
this Air Force manpower to do this

01:37:48.660 --> 01:37:50.710
evaluation , they come back with a

01:37:50.720 --> 01:37:52.387
pretty compelling statement ,

01:37:52.387 --> 01:37:54.510
consistent , persistent and getting

01:37:54.510 --> 01:37:56.640
worse . And then you do nothing about

01:37:56.640 --> 01:37:59.810
it . How is that deliberative ? Well ,

01:37:59.810 --> 01:38:03.260
the it was it is consistent and has

01:38:03.260 --> 01:38:05.316
been since we've been collecting the

01:38:05.316 --> 01:38:07.149
data since 72 . It is persistent

01:38:07.149 --> 01:38:09.770
because it is consistent . A sfar . Is

01:38:09.770 --> 01:38:11.881
it getting worse ? It has pretty much

01:38:11.881 --> 01:38:13.992
stayed the same , at least in the Air

01:38:13.992 --> 01:38:17.440
Force across across this time . But one

01:38:17.440 --> 01:38:20.430
thing that we do know in the air forces

01:38:20.620 --> 01:38:24.300
to create this this zone of innovation ,

01:38:24.300 --> 01:38:26.810
this this creative problem solving

01:38:26.810 --> 01:38:29.260
these creative solutions , you have to

01:38:29.260 --> 01:38:32.570
give people man the ability to to

01:38:32.940 --> 01:38:34.890
really just look at this issue in

01:38:34.900 --> 01:38:37.122
different ways . But I agree with you .

01:38:37.122 --> 01:38:39.580
I'm gonna move on . Thank you . Um ,

01:38:40.230 --> 01:38:42.910
Admiral Han IQ . The request for forya .

01:38:43.140 --> 01:38:45.700
The request was from , I think 2006 to

01:38:45.700 --> 01:38:48.430
2015 . You provided only

01:38:49.220 --> 01:38:52.630
information and data from 2014 and 15 .

01:38:52.870 --> 01:38:56.490
Why did you not provide the entire

01:38:56.490 --> 01:38:59.000
request , Madam Chair , I'll have to

01:38:59.000 --> 01:39:01.222
take that question . For the record , I

01:39:01.222 --> 01:39:03.333
know that we switched case management

01:39:03.333 --> 01:39:06.460
systems in about 2014 and I think it

01:39:06.470 --> 01:39:10.020
likely was dealing with the data and

01:39:10.020 --> 01:39:12.131
the amount of good data that we could

01:39:12.131 --> 01:39:14.353
deliver . But I'll get back to you with

01:39:14.353 --> 01:39:16.076
the final answer . All right .

01:39:16.076 --> 01:39:18.131
Protector defenders , when they came

01:39:18.131 --> 01:39:20.298
out with a report , found that the Air

01:39:20.298 --> 01:39:23.850
Force was 71% more likely to

01:39:23.980 --> 01:39:27.680
have black hair . Man

01:39:28.220 --> 01:39:31.070
face court martial than whites . Army

01:39:31.070 --> 01:39:34.250
was 61% . Navy was 40% . Marine Corps

01:39:34.250 --> 01:39:38.240
was 32% . Did any of you reach out to

01:39:38.240 --> 01:39:40.790
protect our defenders to find out more

01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:44.580
about their study or how

01:39:44.580 --> 01:39:47.080
they could be helpful to you in dealing

01:39:47.080 --> 01:39:49.120
with this problem ? Shannon OPD ,

01:39:52.100 --> 01:39:54.350
ma'am , I can't say today that I know

01:39:54.350 --> 01:39:56.710
specifically what what communications

01:39:56.710 --> 01:40:00.340
we had with pod during that time . I

01:40:00.340 --> 01:40:02.562
can get that answer back to you , but I

01:40:02.562 --> 01:40:04.673
can't say right now . Do you have any

01:40:04.673 --> 01:40:06.784
intention of working with them moving

01:40:06.784 --> 01:40:09.007
forward ? Man , we've We've talked with

01:40:09.007 --> 01:40:11.173
pod . We've digested their materials .

01:40:11.173 --> 01:40:13.340
We've used it . Teoh , inform us . But

01:40:13.340 --> 01:40:15.830
I think we also spent a fair amount of

01:40:15.830 --> 01:40:17.886
time , extensive amount of time with

01:40:17.886 --> 01:40:20.140
Joo and its data requests as well . So

01:40:20.890 --> 01:40:23.990
we have a lot of people asking us for

01:40:23.990 --> 01:40:27.360
information . Eso we provide as best we

01:40:27.360 --> 01:40:29.730
can and certainly in accordance with

01:40:29.730 --> 01:40:32.940
the rules what we should provide to not

01:40:32.940 --> 01:40:34.773
only private organizations , but

01:40:34.773 --> 01:40:36.884
certainly thank you . I'm running out

01:40:36.884 --> 01:40:38.910
of time , Admiral . Panic . Did you

01:40:38.910 --> 01:40:41.210
reach out to pod toe ? Learn more about

01:40:41.210 --> 01:40:43.154
their process or how they might be

01:40:43.300 --> 01:40:45.360
helpful . Man , I'm sure I did not ,

01:40:45.470 --> 01:40:47.470
but I don't know is if anybody from

01:40:47.470 --> 01:40:49.620
organization did . But I wish I had

01:40:49.620 --> 01:40:52.510
acted earlier . Thank you , General

01:40:52.510 --> 01:40:56.300
Rockwell . No , ma'am . Way are very

01:40:56.300 --> 01:40:58.244
much looking forward , though , to

01:40:58.370 --> 01:41:00.426
seeing with the field . Thinks about

01:41:00.426 --> 01:41:02.481
this . And this is what behind r I g

01:41:02.481 --> 01:41:04.703
independent review of this . We're able

01:41:04.703 --> 01:41:06.870
to talk to the very same people in the

01:41:06.870 --> 01:41:09.148
field that the pot has been talking to ,

01:41:09.148 --> 01:41:12.190
uh , with a multi disciplinary team to

01:41:12.190 --> 01:41:14.900
get this type of feedback off . What

01:41:14.900 --> 01:41:16.844
exactly is going on ? And what are

01:41:16.844 --> 01:41:20.180
those root causes ? General etc . Madam

01:41:20.180 --> 01:41:22.347
Share . I did not . And I think that's

01:41:22.347 --> 01:41:24.458
an area where we can do better moving

01:41:24.458 --> 01:41:26.680
work on that . Do any of you think that

01:41:26.680 --> 01:41:28.910
someone should be court martial for

01:41:28.910 --> 01:41:31.910
being six minutes late to a formation

01:41:31.910 --> 01:41:33.980
meeting ? Tell me ,

01:41:35.910 --> 01:41:39.760
general Achy , I'm sure . I mean , it

01:41:39.760 --> 01:41:41.871
would depend on the circumstances . I

01:41:41.871 --> 01:41:44.204
mean , if it was in combat . Absolutely .

01:41:44.410 --> 01:41:46.466
I think if it was late for a meeting

01:41:46.466 --> 01:41:48.950
here in the Pentagon or and and this

01:41:48.960 --> 01:41:51.182
this chamber , the answer would be no ,

01:41:51.182 --> 01:41:53.404
ma'am . Right ? My time . has expired .

01:41:53.404 --> 01:41:56.820
Ranking member Kelly . I think we have

01:41:56.820 --> 01:41:58.709
to be real dying gris about using

01:41:58.709 --> 01:42:00.931
partial facts and partial figures . Six

01:42:00.931 --> 01:42:03.330
minutes lights , Not a big deal unless

01:42:03.340 --> 01:42:05.340
it is six minutes late . Delivering

01:42:05.340 --> 01:42:07.229
ordinance that saves thousands of

01:42:07.229 --> 01:42:09.284
troops six minutes late is not a big

01:42:09.284 --> 01:42:12.650
deal if it is to a meeting with Ah ,

01:42:12.650 --> 01:42:14.483
subordinate . But it's extremely

01:42:14.483 --> 01:42:16.428
important if your meeting with the

01:42:16.428 --> 01:42:16.350
president , United States of the

01:42:16.350 --> 01:42:18.630
Secretary of Defense ah , six minutes

01:42:18.630 --> 01:42:21.020
late , if it is one time is not a big

01:42:21.020 --> 01:42:23.076
deal . Six minutes light . If it's a

01:42:23.076 --> 01:42:24.909
pattern . So not knowing all the

01:42:24.909 --> 01:42:26.798
circumstances , whether it was 16

01:42:26.798 --> 01:42:28.798
minute thing or the other , I think

01:42:28.798 --> 01:42:30.798
we're very dangerous . I think Carl

01:42:30.798 --> 01:42:32.742
Christiansen was very dangerous in

01:42:32.742 --> 01:42:34.964
saying that lawyers are less culturally

01:42:35.300 --> 01:42:39.030
byes , then commanders . That is a very

01:42:39.030 --> 01:42:41.700
dangerous assumption when he also said

01:42:41.710 --> 01:42:45.100
Onley one Antonini in Jags are African

01:42:45.100 --> 01:42:47.390
American . So where lesser represented

01:42:47.390 --> 01:42:49.390
in the Jag Corps but therefore were

01:42:49.390 --> 01:42:51.560
culturally superior to the rest of

01:42:51.560 --> 01:42:53.560
these commanders . I think that's a

01:42:53.560 --> 01:42:56.080
very dangerous assumption to make . I

01:42:56.080 --> 01:42:58.300
think we have to be real care . Here's

01:42:58.300 --> 01:43:02.100
what we know . We know e fives . People

01:43:02.100 --> 01:43:04.880
with five years and below are treated

01:43:05.260 --> 01:43:07.130
differently . If they're African

01:43:07.130 --> 01:43:09.186
American , when they're in the armed

01:43:09.186 --> 01:43:11.560
services , we know that . So we know

01:43:11.560 --> 01:43:15.030
what we got to get after we know that

01:43:15.220 --> 01:43:17.390
it seems the referral rates when

01:43:17.390 --> 01:43:19.740
they're tried to the conclusion or the

01:43:19.740 --> 01:43:22.140
same . So that doesn't necessarily mean

01:43:22.140 --> 01:43:24.251
that people are being referred . That

01:43:24.251 --> 01:43:26.307
shouldn't . It may actually mean the

01:43:26.307 --> 01:43:28.473
opposite , but we don't know . So what

01:43:28.473 --> 01:43:30.640
we've got to do is number one , figure

01:43:30.640 --> 01:43:32.600
out . How do we quit being

01:43:32.600 --> 01:43:34.044
discriminatory , racially

01:43:34.044 --> 01:43:36.330
discriminatory , to eat fives and below

01:43:36.330 --> 01:43:38.497
in people with five years of service ?

01:43:38.497 --> 01:43:40.552
What do we need to do to remedy that

01:43:40.552 --> 01:43:42.608
situation ? Number two is We know we

01:43:42.608 --> 01:43:44.608
don't have African American fighter

01:43:44.608 --> 01:43:46.710
pilots . We know that the promotion

01:43:46.710 --> 01:43:48.821
right sometimes are slower to general

01:43:48.821 --> 01:43:50.932
officer or don't make general officer

01:43:50.932 --> 01:43:53.099
with African Americans or minorities .

01:43:53.700 --> 01:43:55.922
We know some of the reasons , and so we

01:43:55.922 --> 01:43:57.978
got to get after him . Anthony Brown

01:43:57.978 --> 01:43:59.978
has the elite at which he's talking

01:43:59.978 --> 01:44:02.089
about because let me tell you what if

01:44:02.089 --> 01:44:01.630
you're not a fighter pilot , you're

01:44:01.630 --> 01:44:03.574
probably not gonna make General if

01:44:03.574 --> 01:44:05.574
you're not a submarine or a surface

01:44:05.574 --> 01:44:07.574
ship guy or an aviator , you're not

01:44:07.574 --> 01:44:09.741
gonna make admiral . You might . There

01:44:09.741 --> 01:44:11.741
may be some JAG corps , some signal

01:44:11.741 --> 01:44:13.852
some logistics officer do . If you're

01:44:13.852 --> 01:44:15.908
in the army , if you're not a tanker

01:44:15.908 --> 01:44:17.963
infantry or combat arms guy , you're

01:44:17.963 --> 01:44:19.797
probably not as likely to make .

01:44:19.797 --> 01:44:21.908
General , we know these . And so what

01:44:21.908 --> 01:44:23.963
are we doing to get African American

01:44:23.963 --> 01:44:26.130
kids into those branches where we know

01:44:26.130 --> 01:44:28.186
promotions happen ? Will you get the

01:44:28.186 --> 01:44:30.297
best schools because of the jobs that

01:44:30.297 --> 01:44:32.297
you do ? What do we do to encourage

01:44:32.297 --> 01:44:34.074
them ? What are we doing as the

01:44:34.074 --> 01:44:36.186
services to go after and make sure we

01:44:36.186 --> 01:44:38.350
got aviators who fly in the Navy who

01:44:38.350 --> 01:44:40.572
come off the decks of those cues ? What

01:44:40.572 --> 01:44:42.683
are we doing to make sure that we got

01:44:42.683 --> 01:44:44.850
African American pilots who wanna be F

01:44:44.850 --> 01:44:47.040
35 pilots , which is more likely a

01:44:47.040 --> 01:44:48.984
quicker track to being promoted to

01:44:48.984 --> 01:44:51.096
general ? Anything else ? What are we

01:44:51.096 --> 01:44:52.873
doing to make sure that African

01:44:52.873 --> 01:44:55.040
American soldiers at the E one through

01:44:55.040 --> 01:44:57.262
85 level are getting in the right ? Imo

01:44:57.262 --> 01:44:57.260
s is the right branches where

01:44:57.260 --> 01:45:00.160
promotions exist . That's what we got

01:45:00.160 --> 01:45:02.410
today . And I don't mean to preach ,

01:45:02.410 --> 01:45:04.521
but we got to get at the root of this

01:45:04.521 --> 01:45:06.521
stuff . We gotta quit talking about

01:45:06.521 --> 01:45:08.466
some of these things that maybe or

01:45:08.466 --> 01:45:10.521
might day what we got to do . If you

01:45:10.521 --> 01:45:12.743
want to stamp out the problem , you got

01:45:12.743 --> 01:45:14.966
to figure out what the problem is . You

01:45:14.966 --> 01:45:17.243
got to figure out what the root causes ,

01:45:17.243 --> 01:45:19.243
and I think right now we're failing

01:45:19.243 --> 01:45:19.040
horribly at that . So with that being

01:45:19.040 --> 01:45:21.040
said , I want to drive with Timmy .

01:45:21.040 --> 01:45:23.151
What are you doing in your service to

01:45:23.151 --> 01:45:24.873
figure out what the cause is ,

01:45:24.873 --> 01:45:26.984
therefore , that we can make a change

01:45:26.984 --> 01:45:29.900
in a difference ? Congressman Kelly ,

01:45:29.900 --> 01:45:31.910
Thank you , I think from ah ,

01:45:31.920 --> 01:45:34.087
recruiting and promotion perspective ,

01:45:34.087 --> 01:45:36.253
I think there's an intense focus right

01:45:36.253 --> 01:45:38.364
now . And there has been our chief of

01:45:38.364 --> 01:45:40.031
staff secretary instituted an

01:45:40.031 --> 01:45:41.920
information age talent management

01:45:41.920 --> 01:45:44.031
system last year , and that , in part

01:45:44.031 --> 01:45:46.253
is designed to get after natural talent

01:45:46.253 --> 01:45:49.300
and talent that that implicit bias

01:45:49.310 --> 01:45:51.650
might prevent from advancing . And so I

01:45:51.650 --> 01:45:53.900
think there's a fair . There's not just

01:45:53.900 --> 01:45:55.789
a fair amount of emphasis there .

01:45:55.789 --> 01:45:57.820
Significant emphasis . I ous I

01:45:57.820 --> 01:45:59.690
mentioned in my statement I have

01:45:59.690 --> 01:46:02.960
directed with General Marine Ah look

01:46:02.970 --> 01:46:05.760
very deliberate assessment of trying to

01:46:05.760 --> 01:46:08.510
get left of the allegation , and what

01:46:08.510 --> 01:46:10.250
that means is if we have

01:46:10.960 --> 01:46:12.904
overrepresentation coming into the

01:46:12.904 --> 01:46:15.127
investigative system . How do we get in

01:46:15.127 --> 01:46:17.320
front of that allegation to figure out

01:46:17.320 --> 01:46:19.487
what's happening when the soldier gets

01:46:19.487 --> 01:46:23.170
to the unit such that they they get in

01:46:23.170 --> 01:46:25.281
with , Let's say , the wrong crowd or

01:46:25.281 --> 01:46:27.337
they start using drugs or they start

01:46:27.337 --> 01:46:29.503
misbehaving . What is going on there ?

01:46:29.503 --> 01:46:31.640
Or perhaps what ? Just to the left of

01:46:31.640 --> 01:46:34.030
the disposition decision to send

01:46:34.030 --> 01:46:36.450
someone to trial ? Is there something

01:46:36.450 --> 01:46:38.728
going on there ? So we're looking hard .

01:46:38.728 --> 01:46:40.940
It implicit bias . I take some some

01:46:40.940 --> 01:46:43.160
comfort in this . When we started

01:46:43.160 --> 01:46:45.271
looking at implicit bias in the arena

01:46:45.280 --> 01:46:47.447
of sexual assault about 10 years ago ,

01:46:47.780 --> 01:46:50.450
it is now replete through our training .

01:46:50.460 --> 01:46:53.290
Not only commanders but judge advocates

01:46:53.290 --> 01:46:55.710
throughout , and it , in my assessment

01:46:55.710 --> 01:46:57.599
professional assessment has had a

01:46:57.599 --> 01:47:00.180
significant impact on the understanding

01:47:00.180 --> 01:47:02.402
of counterintuitive behaviour in sexual

01:47:02.402 --> 01:47:05.180
assaults . We know training education

01:47:05.340 --> 01:47:08.120
in implicit bias works . Can you guys

01:47:08.120 --> 01:47:10.120
really answer really quickly , just

01:47:10.120 --> 01:47:12.231
like 15 seconds on what you can do to

01:47:12.231 --> 01:47:14.453
change that ? Because I'm out of time .

01:47:15.840 --> 01:47:18.630
Thank you Wreck . Remember Kelly First

01:47:18.630 --> 01:47:20.741
and foremost , I think we the jack or

01:47:20.741 --> 01:47:22.908
need to fit in with the Navy's over 11

01:47:22.908 --> 01:47:25.019
and a culture of excellence it really

01:47:25.019 --> 01:47:27.186
is about emphasizing signature waivers

01:47:27.186 --> 01:47:29.074
that giving your respect that you

01:47:29.074 --> 01:47:31.297
talked with . Second thing is , we have

01:47:31.297 --> 01:47:33.750
focused on diversity recruiting . We

01:47:33.750 --> 01:47:35.900
have a dedicated diversity liaison

01:47:35.900 --> 01:47:39.240
program 18 officers closely affiliated

01:47:39.240 --> 01:47:41.970
with 13 diversity and educational

01:47:41.980 --> 01:47:44.030
organizations to try to keep

01:47:44.030 --> 01:47:45.697
connections . So we keep that

01:47:45.697 --> 01:47:48.140
recruiting pipeline open and then ,

01:47:48.300 --> 01:47:51.160
like General PD , talked about focusing

01:47:51.160 --> 01:47:53.750
on unconscious bias . The reason that I

01:47:53.750 --> 01:47:55.806
think it works is because I remember

01:47:55.806 --> 01:47:58.040
the first time I took unconscious bias

01:47:58.040 --> 01:48:01.460
training in 2014 . He was only later

01:48:02.070 --> 01:48:04.126
when I realized I had an unconscious

01:48:04.126 --> 01:48:06.403
bias against unconscious bias training .

01:48:06.670 --> 01:48:08.810
I think it can be effective , and I

01:48:08.810 --> 01:48:11.220
think we need to keep at it and keep

01:48:11.220 --> 01:48:13.520
moving that through the force . All

01:48:13.520 --> 01:48:15.742
right , Very quickly , please . Ranking

01:48:15.742 --> 01:48:17.798
member Kelly . We do it exactly what

01:48:17.798 --> 01:48:20.130
you said it . You expand the discipline

01:48:20.130 --> 01:48:22.700
continuum from just courts an article

01:48:22.700 --> 01:48:25.630
15 and you go left when you expand that

01:48:25.630 --> 01:48:27.990
zone . And you look at that how you

01:48:28.770 --> 01:48:30.770
discipline somebody how you counsel

01:48:30.770 --> 01:48:32.881
somebody , how you include somebody .

01:48:32.881 --> 01:48:34.770
How you give them feedback is the

01:48:34.770 --> 01:48:36.890
holistic approach . We have to take

01:48:39.160 --> 01:48:41.470
ranking member coming very quickly .

01:48:41.480 --> 01:48:43.591
This is has to be top down driven and

01:48:43.591 --> 01:48:45.591
the comet on has done that with his

01:48:45.591 --> 01:48:47.924
recent action . Everybody has to get it ,

01:48:47.924 --> 01:48:50.036
and it starts from the top , and he's

01:48:50.036 --> 01:48:52.258
driven that down . We also have done it

01:48:52.258 --> 01:48:54.313
with our pack order . Perpetrator of

01:48:54.313 --> 01:48:56.424
activities and conduct were that gets

01:48:56.424 --> 01:48:58.647
after discrimination that's been on the

01:48:58.647 --> 01:48:58.430
books for three years and involves

01:48:58.430 --> 01:49:00.263
equal opportunity adviser to the

01:49:00.263 --> 01:49:02.541
Commander . It's a commander's program .

01:49:03.770 --> 01:49:05.826
Thank you . Um , this Davis , you're

01:49:05.826 --> 01:49:09.590
recognized for five minutes . Thank

01:49:09.590 --> 01:49:11.850
you . Thank you , Madam . Chair and to

01:49:11.850 --> 01:49:14.072
all of you , we appreciate your joining

01:49:14.072 --> 01:49:17.900
us today . Some . You

01:49:17.900 --> 01:49:20.100
know , I'm glad that , like my

01:49:20.100 --> 01:49:23.470
colleague , Mr Kelly talked about , um ,

01:49:23.730 --> 01:49:26.110
some of the issues that you've already

01:49:26.110 --> 01:49:29.190
identified and one of them it was about

01:49:29.190 --> 01:49:31.190
the five years , and I think that's

01:49:31.190 --> 01:49:33.357
very important . What I'd like to know

01:49:33.357 --> 01:49:36.050
is about the early warning signs . Is

01:49:36.050 --> 01:49:38.050
there ? Is there a nun Durst anding

01:49:38.050 --> 01:49:40.050
that that we really need to look at

01:49:40.050 --> 01:49:42.217
that and that some of that information

01:49:42.680 --> 01:49:44.902
should be collected as well ? Are there

01:49:44.902 --> 01:49:46.736
counselling sessions ? Are there

01:49:46.736 --> 01:49:49.320
concerns about retribution ? How do we

01:49:49.330 --> 01:49:52.570
How do we begin to really understand

01:49:52.570 --> 01:49:54.990
that veteran ? How is that used ? The

01:49:54.990 --> 01:49:58.260
other thing that I think we're all

01:49:58.420 --> 01:50:00.950
sq say that we're all talking about

01:50:00.950 --> 01:50:03.570
right now , um , is the element of

01:50:03.570 --> 01:50:06.360
white privilege and I wonder to what

01:50:06.360 --> 01:50:09.900
extent is that , um , in an

01:50:09.910 --> 01:50:13.650
area of discussion that really can be

01:50:13.660 --> 01:50:16.830
broadened in the military as well ? How

01:50:17.430 --> 01:50:20.140
How is that talked about ? Because , as

01:50:20.140 --> 01:50:22.307
we well know , if you look at the data

01:50:22.740 --> 01:50:26.310
there , there plenty of ways of seeing

01:50:26.310 --> 01:50:28.740
and suggesting and and really being

01:50:28.750 --> 01:50:31.780
open about half about , um ,

01:50:32.670 --> 01:50:34.892
how that affects us all , frankly , and

01:50:34.892 --> 01:50:36.614
I think we all have in our own

01:50:36.614 --> 01:50:39.920
experience , um , those examples and

01:50:40.190 --> 01:50:42.412
how it might have been different if our

01:50:42.412 --> 01:50:44.490
son or daughter was black or brown .

01:50:44.500 --> 01:50:46.556
What ? What does that mean ? I think

01:50:46.556 --> 01:50:48.500
that's an important discussion toe

01:50:48.500 --> 01:50:50.667
having the services as well . And then

01:50:50.667 --> 01:50:54.350
finally , I just a No wonder you know

01:50:54.350 --> 01:50:57.920
how to how once we identify implicit

01:50:57.920 --> 01:51:00.660
bias , what do we do about it If we're

01:51:00.660 --> 01:51:03.220
to go back into some and looking at the

01:51:03.220 --> 01:51:06.710
progression of circumstances

01:51:06.710 --> 01:51:10.690
for for someone and the outcomes What ?

01:51:10.700 --> 01:51:12.770
What is it about that ? How do we

01:51:12.770 --> 01:51:15.103
identify it ? And then what would we do ?

01:51:15.103 --> 01:51:17.370
I mean , really , how how talk about

01:51:17.370 --> 01:51:19.592
that a little bit as well . Thank you .

01:51:23.060 --> 01:51:25.210
You want to start general etc .

01:51:26.850 --> 01:51:29.320
Madam Congressman , you know , again ,

01:51:29.330 --> 01:51:31.630
I believe that starts from the top .

01:51:31.860 --> 01:51:33.804
And I believe it starts with these

01:51:33.804 --> 01:51:35.860
honest and candid conversations in a

01:51:35.860 --> 01:51:38.082
safe environment , you could do this in

01:51:38.082 --> 01:51:40.193
the military . Um , we believe in the

01:51:40.193 --> 01:51:42.193
Marine Corps that this is commander

01:51:42.193 --> 01:51:44.260
driven and commander owned . But you

01:51:44.260 --> 01:51:46.490
have to begin with those . You have to

01:51:46.490 --> 01:51:49.050
view diversity within the force as a

01:51:49.050 --> 01:51:51.590
strength . And that begins , you know ,

01:51:51.590 --> 01:51:53.812
with the common not all way down to the

01:51:53.812 --> 01:51:55.868
most junior . But you have to accept

01:51:55.868 --> 01:51:57.979
that as a strength because at the end

01:51:57.979 --> 01:51:59.979
of the day , that's what the Marine

01:51:59.979 --> 01:52:02.201
Corps is about . It's about fighting as

01:52:02.201 --> 01:52:04.034
a team . Everybody on the team ,

01:52:04.034 --> 01:52:06.034
regardless of gender , ethnicity or

01:52:06.034 --> 01:52:08.410
race , is very important . And that's

01:52:08.420 --> 01:52:10.530
that's the bottom line . So , as my

01:52:10.530 --> 01:52:12.808
colleagues have stated here , you know ,

01:52:12.808 --> 01:52:15.141
pathways and mentorship to young people .

01:52:15.141 --> 01:52:17.308
So look at the military to look at the

01:52:17.308 --> 01:52:19.530
Marine Corps as a path for them . We

01:52:19.530 --> 01:52:21.641
have work to do there , but we can do

01:52:21.641 --> 01:52:23.863
that . Uh , these were things and seven

01:52:23.863 --> 01:52:25.570
separate Now . Thank you ,

01:52:31.090 --> 01:52:34.260
man . I um when I when I look at the

01:52:34.270 --> 01:52:37.480
numbers we have right now and I see

01:52:37.480 --> 01:52:39.647
those numbers and it makes you realize

01:52:39.647 --> 01:52:41.647
that the numbers are good data , at

01:52:41.647 --> 01:52:44.170
least from an Article 15 and ah , court

01:52:44.170 --> 01:52:46.680
standpoint , it's not evidence . It's

01:52:46.680 --> 01:52:48.880
not evidence to get to the root cause

01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:51.380
of the problem . So the last part of

01:52:51.380 --> 01:52:53.713
your question , how do we train on bias ?

01:52:53.713 --> 01:52:55.769
You look at the way attorneys always

01:52:55.769 --> 01:52:58.000
look at things . You looked a weed out

01:52:58.000 --> 01:53:00.620
bias to get to the weight , relevance

01:53:00.620 --> 01:53:03.920
and credibility of actual evidence . I

01:53:03.920 --> 01:53:06.120
think one of the approaches we must

01:53:06.130 --> 01:53:09.030
take is to develop more data left of

01:53:09.030 --> 01:53:11.580
Article 15 . We don't have that data

01:53:11.590 --> 01:53:13.757
way . We kind of know that's where the

01:53:13.757 --> 01:53:16.070
problem is . What we don't know and

01:53:16.070 --> 01:53:20.000
what we can't answer for sure is are

01:53:20.000 --> 01:53:23.950
we mentoring everybody the same ? We

01:53:23.950 --> 01:53:26.760
all feel that we probably aren't based

01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:30.140
on those biases . Um , but we don't

01:53:30.140 --> 01:53:33.050
have the specific data to show that

01:53:33.050 --> 01:53:35.106
once you get that data , of course ,

01:53:35.106 --> 01:53:37.272
you move on to the training , you move

01:53:37.272 --> 01:53:39.383
on to the speaking of bias , you move

01:53:39.383 --> 01:53:41.494
on to the training of that , you move

01:53:41.494 --> 01:53:43.717
onto weeding that out and that all that

01:53:43.717 --> 01:53:46.370
all creates an atmosphere of inclusion .

01:53:46.750 --> 01:53:49.083
You create that atmosphere of inclusion ,

01:53:49.200 --> 01:53:52.010
you've just created diversity . Okay ,

01:53:52.020 --> 01:53:54.940
Thank you . Um , Admiral Hannah , Miss

01:53:54.940 --> 01:53:57.107
Davis says about 15 seconds , but will

01:53:57.107 --> 01:53:59.107
extend 15 seconds to each of you to

01:53:59.107 --> 01:54:01.960
finish your comments . The only

01:54:01.960 --> 01:54:04.016
additional comment I would have is I

01:54:04.016 --> 01:54:06.016
think the value of unconscious bias

01:54:06.016 --> 01:54:08.080
training and other decision making

01:54:08.080 --> 01:54:10.710
training is that you you put yourself

01:54:10.720 --> 01:54:12.664
in the position where you can take

01:54:12.664 --> 01:54:14.720
different perspectives and you bring

01:54:14.720 --> 01:54:16.776
other people on your decision making

01:54:16.776 --> 01:54:16.480
team as well . And that's very

01:54:16.480 --> 01:54:18.710
protective for the final decision maker

01:54:18.710 --> 01:54:20.266
and everybody on the team .

01:54:22.530 --> 01:54:25.590
Yes , ma'am . Thank you . I think you

01:54:26.010 --> 01:54:28.990
should know as well that the Army not

01:54:28.990 --> 01:54:31.140
only is focused in the squad level in

01:54:31.140 --> 01:54:33.140
the squad level of according to our

01:54:33.140 --> 01:54:35.251
sergeant major and our chief of staff

01:54:35.251 --> 01:54:37.473
and secretary , it's all about the team

01:54:37.473 --> 01:54:39.807
building . And it's all about inclusion .

01:54:39.807 --> 01:54:42.029
And it's all about bringing people onto

01:54:42.029 --> 01:54:44.140
one team , so they all feel that they

01:54:44.140 --> 01:54:46.196
belong . And that gives you a better

01:54:46.196 --> 01:54:45.870
ability to diagnose where people are

01:54:45.870 --> 01:54:48.092
going left and right and center . And I

01:54:48.092 --> 01:54:50.540
think that focus by our Army leadership

01:54:50.780 --> 01:54:52.836
at every echelon all the way down is

01:54:52.836 --> 01:54:55.002
key to getting after this , especially

01:54:55.002 --> 01:54:58.320
when it comes to unconscious bias . All

01:54:58.320 --> 01:55:02.180
right , thank you . Here is Helen .

01:55:02.190 --> 01:55:04.246
You're recognized for five minutes .

01:55:05.100 --> 01:55:07.740
Thank you , Chair . And thank you ,

01:55:07.750 --> 01:55:09.861
Ranking member Kelly for holding this

01:55:09.861 --> 01:55:11.970
hearing and thank you Panelists for

01:55:11.970 --> 01:55:14.340
being here . This is a significant

01:55:14.340 --> 01:55:17.630
problem that we absolutely need to fix .

01:55:17.770 --> 01:55:20.120
We must ensure the systems we utilize

01:55:20.120 --> 01:55:22.330
to administer discipline are fair and

01:55:22.330 --> 01:55:25.710
just for everyone . In the 19 sixties ,

01:55:25.710 --> 01:55:27.970
my father served in the Marine Corps

01:55:27.980 --> 01:55:29.800
and experienced firsthand the

01:55:29.800 --> 01:55:32.250
maturation of the service into a fully

01:55:32.260 --> 01:55:34.550
integrated force , along with the

01:55:34.550 --> 01:55:37.240
racial tensions that flared up during

01:55:37.240 --> 01:55:40.130
that time . We progress since then ,

01:55:40.140 --> 01:55:42.196
but we can all agree we still have a

01:55:42.196 --> 01:55:44.860
long way to go . It was disheartening

01:55:44.860 --> 01:55:46.582
to learn that despite the data

01:55:46.582 --> 01:55:48.960
presented in the 2017 Protector

01:55:48.960 --> 01:55:51.840
Defenders Report and the 2019 Jail

01:55:51.840 --> 01:55:54.220
Report , the services have responded

01:55:54.220 --> 01:55:56.387
with little more than unconscious bias

01:55:56.387 --> 01:55:59.660
training to address widespread racial

01:55:59.660 --> 01:56:02.710
disparities . Meanwhile , Black Service

01:56:02.710 --> 01:56:05.270
members continue to receive nonjudicial

01:56:05.270 --> 01:56:07.381
punishment at disproportionately high

01:56:07.381 --> 01:56:09.720
rates , compared toa White Service

01:56:09.720 --> 01:56:11.970
members , and I have to believe that

01:56:11.970 --> 01:56:14.840
this is also a contributing factor toe .

01:56:14.840 --> 01:56:16.840
Why we don't see service members of

01:56:16.840 --> 01:56:19.230
color achieve higher ranks , which is

01:56:19.230 --> 01:56:20.786
an issue this committee has

01:56:20.786 --> 01:56:23.060
consistently raised and which Weiqing

01:56:23.060 --> 01:56:25.590
member Kelly so eloquently articulated

01:56:25.600 --> 01:56:27.940
just a few minutes ago . Generally ,

01:56:27.940 --> 01:56:29.829
what Rockwell the Air Force spent

01:56:29.829 --> 01:56:32.051
nearly three years worth of resource is

01:56:32.051 --> 01:56:33.950
time and energy , refuting the

01:56:33.950 --> 01:56:36.270
protector defenders report and

01:56:36.270 --> 01:56:38.270
preventing the data from being made

01:56:38.270 --> 01:56:40.870
available to the public . That time and

01:56:40.870 --> 01:56:42.870
those resource is , could have been

01:56:42.870 --> 01:56:45.240
spent accepting that there is a major

01:56:45.240 --> 01:56:48.260
problem in tackling it head on . It's

01:56:48.260 --> 01:56:50.500
clear the racial disparities thinner

01:56:50.500 --> 01:56:52.950
military justice system requires more

01:56:52.950 --> 01:56:55.400
than just a disparity . Board that met

01:56:55.400 --> 01:56:58.310
for 90 days to result . Try to resolve

01:56:58.310 --> 01:57:01.100
it . So my quest . One of my questions .

01:57:01.100 --> 01:57:03.350
I have a few Will this include

01:57:03.360 --> 01:57:06.710
improving the well all of the work that

01:57:06.710 --> 01:57:08.990
you mentioned earlier about addressing

01:57:08.990 --> 01:57:11.370
these long term issues ? Will this

01:57:11.370 --> 01:57:13.370
include improving the collection of

01:57:13.370 --> 01:57:15.800
data on race and ethnicity to make it

01:57:15.800 --> 01:57:18.550
more uniform across the services ? So

01:57:18.550 --> 01:57:21.600
it's easier to identify problems ?

01:57:24.180 --> 01:57:26.610
Yes , ma'am , it will . We are making a

01:57:26.700 --> 01:57:30.530
conscious effort to again move that

01:57:30.530 --> 01:57:32.850
left of that Article 15 and court

01:57:32.850 --> 01:57:35.510
martial on the continuum and collect

01:57:35.510 --> 01:57:37.600
that a collect meaningful data of

01:57:37.600 --> 01:57:39.767
inclusion and feedback and mentoring .

01:57:39.890 --> 01:57:43.100
I think that's critical to getting to

01:57:43.100 --> 01:57:45.670
the root cost off the issue . Here .

01:57:48.520 --> 01:57:51.700
Thank you . And what is the timeline

01:57:51.700 --> 01:57:54.970
for actions to be taken ? If you could

01:57:54.970 --> 01:57:58.190
just reiterate that , General Rockwell .

01:58:00.290 --> 01:58:03.100
We're doing it now , ma'am . And Ah ,

01:58:03.480 --> 01:58:06.360
And right now , the projected timeline

01:58:06.370 --> 01:58:08.560
with the group that has been put

01:58:08.560 --> 01:58:11.240
together with our manpower and reserve

01:58:11.240 --> 01:58:13.920
affairs and personnel that were were a

01:58:13.920 --> 01:58:17.850
part off is ah , calendar year 20 .

01:58:19.510 --> 01:58:22.200
Okay . Thank you so much . And last

01:58:22.200 --> 01:58:24.660
question . Well , maybe the last

01:58:24.660 --> 01:58:26.716
question , General , depending on my

01:58:26.716 --> 01:58:28.493
time , how will the progress be

01:58:28.493 --> 01:58:29.493
measured ?

01:58:32.790 --> 01:58:35.340
I think ultimately you measure progress

01:58:35.340 --> 01:58:38.820
by eliminating that racial disparity .

01:58:39.170 --> 01:58:41.226
You get to where we are right now in

01:58:41.226 --> 01:58:43.226
the Air Force at the E five level .

01:58:43.226 --> 01:58:45.281
With five years in where there is no

01:58:45.281 --> 01:58:47.448
disparity , I think that has to be the

01:58:47.448 --> 01:58:49.670
ultimate goal of where we should get to

01:58:51.820 --> 01:58:54.042
thank you so much . And I have I have a

01:58:54.042 --> 01:58:56.280
little bit of time . So I will ask this

01:58:56.280 --> 01:58:58.113
next question . I understand the

01:58:58.113 --> 01:59:00.113
inspector general will be leading a

01:59:00.113 --> 01:59:02.350
review on racial disparities and causal

01:59:02.560 --> 01:59:04.760
factors . like culture and policies .

01:59:04.770 --> 01:59:06.890
The scope and demographic makeup of

01:59:06.890 --> 01:59:09.057
this review panel can certainly make a

01:59:09.057 --> 01:59:11.460
difference in its effectiveness and

01:59:11.460 --> 01:59:13.516
what its recommendations look like .

01:59:13.810 --> 01:59:16.350
Can you describe the makeup of the

01:59:16.360 --> 01:59:16.990
panel ?

01:59:20.290 --> 01:59:22.512
I don't have the full details . We have

01:59:22.512 --> 01:59:25.370
three members on that panel , but it is

01:59:25.380 --> 01:59:28.100
It is fundamentally large panel it has .

01:59:28.110 --> 01:59:31.410
It has general officers on it who are

01:59:31.410 --> 01:59:33.840
black and African American . It has

01:59:33.850 --> 01:59:36.200
chiefs on it , senior enlisted , who

01:59:36.200 --> 01:59:39.670
are African American . And it is It is

01:59:39.860 --> 01:59:42.360
multi disciplinary and multi diverse .

01:59:43.210 --> 01:59:46.860
The again , the idea is to get left off

01:59:46.970 --> 01:59:49.960
Article 15 . And to get to that , there

01:59:49.960 --> 01:59:52.182
are so many different factors that need

01:59:52.182 --> 01:59:54.238
to be looked at . And I think what's

01:59:54.238 --> 01:59:56.780
going to be key is reaching down into

01:59:58.210 --> 02:00:00.420
what people feel on the ground . Uh ,

02:00:00.420 --> 02:00:02.440
and that's really the focus of what

02:00:02.440 --> 02:00:05.740
they're trying to get to . Thank you so

02:00:05.740 --> 02:00:08.580
much , Madam Chair , I yield . Thank

02:00:08.580 --> 02:00:10.830
you , Miss Holland . Mr . Cisneros ,

02:00:10.830 --> 02:00:12.886
you're recognized for five minutes .

02:00:14.670 --> 02:00:16.892
Thank you , Madam Chair and I thank you

02:00:16.892 --> 02:00:19.420
all for being here today . You know we

02:00:19.420 --> 02:00:22.210
have a problem in this country . What ?

02:00:22.210 --> 02:00:25.640
Sentencing in the civilian . Well in

02:00:25.640 --> 02:00:28.100
the civilian law enforcement . There

02:00:28.160 --> 02:00:31.230
are criminal justice system of people

02:00:31.230 --> 02:00:33.160
of color . Tend to get a longer

02:00:33.160 --> 02:00:36.160
sentences that are there . Then what

02:00:36.170 --> 02:00:39.670
individuals do ? Is this something

02:00:39.670 --> 02:00:41.670
we're looking at in the military as

02:00:41.670 --> 02:00:43.830
well ? We know we have a problem with

02:00:43.830 --> 02:00:46.850
the fives and below going to court

02:00:46.850 --> 02:00:49.290
martial or receiving and JP more often

02:00:49.290 --> 02:00:52.250
than White Service members do . But are

02:00:52.250 --> 02:00:54.583
we looking at the sentencing and really ,

02:00:54.583 --> 02:00:56.750
are these individuals of colored being

02:00:56.750 --> 02:00:59.340
sentenced more harshly than their white

02:00:59.580 --> 02:01:00.580
counterparts ?

02:01:04.300 --> 02:01:08.020
Sir , I'll go first . Um , as we looked

02:01:08.020 --> 02:01:11.020
at this issue with regard to the G A O

02:01:11.020 --> 02:01:14.620
report . Ah , as a matter of fact ,

02:01:16.010 --> 02:01:19.840
Black Airman are sentenced , um ,

02:01:21.680 --> 02:01:24.460
less severely than white . I think that

02:01:24.460 --> 02:01:26.571
indicate and that's both with article

02:01:26.571 --> 02:01:28.710
15 punishments and court martial

02:01:28.710 --> 02:01:32.660
sentences . Um , I think all that

02:01:32.660 --> 02:01:35.180
tells us is this this issue is much

02:01:35.180 --> 02:01:38.650
more complex than we can really wrap .

02:01:38.760 --> 02:01:42.700
That was Yeah , correct me if

02:01:42.720 --> 02:01:44.942
I'm wrong , but that was form or senior

02:01:44.942 --> 02:01:47.440
members of the E five are above 85

02:01:47.440 --> 02:01:49.551
right ? I'm talking about more junior

02:01:49.551 --> 02:01:51.850
ranks . No , sorry . Even the one Teoh

02:01:51.850 --> 02:01:54.260
IV e five ranks where you see the

02:01:54.260 --> 02:01:56.482
racial disparity when you break it down

02:01:56.482 --> 02:01:58.980
further in the air force of White

02:01:58.980 --> 02:02:00.980
Airman are actually punished and

02:02:00.980 --> 02:02:02.924
sentenced more severely than Black

02:02:02.924 --> 02:02:05.930
Airman with a gentleman Yield . Yes ,

02:02:05.930 --> 02:02:09.510
ma'am . Um , in the G a o report , it

02:02:09.510 --> 02:02:11.343
said that black and male service

02:02:11.343 --> 02:02:13.566
members were more likely than white and

02:02:13.566 --> 02:02:15.732
female service members to be tried and

02:02:15.732 --> 02:02:17.566
summary courts martial and to be

02:02:17.566 --> 02:02:19.621
subject of nonjudicial punishment in

02:02:19.621 --> 02:02:21.910
the Air Force in the Marine Corps . How

02:02:21.910 --> 02:02:24.021
does that square with what you said ,

02:02:24.021 --> 02:02:26.188
General ? Yes , ma'am , that that's ah

02:02:26.188 --> 02:02:29.020
in venue selection Mawr . Go to that

02:02:29.020 --> 02:02:31.490
venue , that court martial . But at the

02:02:31.500 --> 02:02:33.722
end of it , when they are actually , if

02:02:33.722 --> 02:02:35.870
they are convicted and punished their

02:02:35.870 --> 02:02:39.100
sentences or less in the Air Force and

02:02:39.600 --> 02:02:41.711
and again I am I don't know what that

02:02:41.711 --> 02:02:43.950
means . Uh , it's It's just as you as

02:02:43.950 --> 02:02:46.228
you pull apart the data and analyze it .

02:02:46.450 --> 02:02:48.672
That's what we see in the Air Force . I

02:02:48.672 --> 02:02:50.728
don't know if that's the case in the

02:02:50.728 --> 02:02:53.820
other services . You know , if I could

02:02:53.830 --> 02:02:55.830
for the other services , if I could

02:02:55.830 --> 02:02:58.800
take those answers . For the record , I

02:02:58.810 --> 02:03:00.850
have another question regarding the

02:03:00.850 --> 02:03:03.280
collection of data in regards to in JP .

02:03:03.770 --> 02:03:07.080
Um for and Commanding Officers

02:03:07.440 --> 02:03:09.650
Assn . We're doing the NGP as your

02:03:09.650 --> 02:03:13.050
collecting this data , um are we be

02:03:13.050 --> 02:03:15.110
collecting individual data for these

02:03:15.110 --> 02:03:17.054
commanding officers and looking at

02:03:17.054 --> 02:03:20.530
their records and trying to find these

02:03:20.530 --> 02:03:22.474
racial disparities and how they're

02:03:23.760 --> 02:03:27.680
dishing out punishment ? And if so , if

02:03:27.680 --> 02:03:29.624
we're seeing starting to see these

02:03:29.624 --> 02:03:31.680
racial disparities in the punishment

02:03:31.680 --> 02:03:33.791
that they're issuing , are they being

02:03:33.791 --> 02:03:36.190
council ? That all ? And anybody could

02:03:36.190 --> 02:03:38.246
take that question like they're from

02:03:38.246 --> 02:03:41.810
everybody I could . Congressman , this

02:03:41.810 --> 02:03:44.550
is General PD from the Army . I think

02:03:44.550 --> 02:03:47.020
the short answer is if we if we looked

02:03:47.020 --> 02:03:49.076
at our data collection today , we do

02:03:49.076 --> 02:03:51.187
not track that they're anything right

02:03:51.187 --> 02:03:54.840
now . My mike is activated .

02:03:55.080 --> 02:03:58.100
Can you hear me ? Ok , OK , sir , this

02:03:58.100 --> 02:04:00.680
general PD from the army sitting here

02:04:00.680 --> 02:04:04.010
today , we do not track Ah , particular

02:04:04.010 --> 02:04:06.970
commanders dispositions by commander by

02:04:06.970 --> 02:04:10.580
race . And so I think in terms of our

02:04:10.590 --> 02:04:13.640
reflections on how we get after the

02:04:13.650 --> 02:04:15.594
notion of potential bias , whether

02:04:15.594 --> 02:04:17.690
unconscious or deliberate , that is

02:04:17.700 --> 02:04:19.811
part of I think , our assessment when

02:04:19.811 --> 02:04:22.033
General Verena and I talk about how law

02:04:22.033 --> 02:04:24.256
enforcement officer reacts to the scene

02:04:24.256 --> 02:04:26.367
of domestic violence or our commander

02:04:26.367 --> 02:04:28.422
disposes of nonjudicial punishment I

02:04:28.422 --> 02:04:30.589
think this is one of the areas that we

02:04:30.589 --> 02:04:32.756
look at . I would tell you , though in

02:04:32.756 --> 02:04:34.978
practice as a practicing judge advocate

02:04:34.978 --> 02:04:36.867
in the field for 32 years , those

02:04:36.867 --> 02:04:39.410
indicators are evident to any judge ,

02:04:39.410 --> 02:04:41.521
advocate or other leader at Echelon .

02:04:41.521 --> 02:04:43.521
Whether it's a brigade commander of

02:04:43.521 --> 02:04:45.743
division commander , they see things in

02:04:45.743 --> 02:04:47.966
their formation , especially particular

02:04:47.966 --> 02:04:50.021
commanders who are doing things that

02:04:50.021 --> 02:04:52.380
appear to them . Odd or suspicious or

02:04:52.380 --> 02:04:54.820
curious , I , myself and only one

02:04:54.820 --> 02:04:56.653
occasion in 32 years remembers a

02:04:56.653 --> 02:04:59.200
commander in such a circumstance as you ,

02:04:59.210 --> 02:05:01.710
as you suggest it's worth looking at .

02:05:01.720 --> 02:05:04.280
I think we have to . Andi , I think

02:05:04.280 --> 02:05:06.280
it's responsible thing to do in our

02:05:06.280 --> 02:05:09.360
assessment . Thank you , sir . You know ,

02:05:09.370 --> 02:05:11.670
with that madam Chairwoman , I yield

02:05:11.670 --> 02:05:13.670
back my time . But I would like tea

02:05:13.670 --> 02:05:15.837
here . Response on the record from the

02:05:15.837 --> 02:05:18.860
the other judge did judge after general .

02:05:18.860 --> 02:05:21.027
Thank you . All right , we'll ask that

02:05:21.027 --> 02:05:23.360
you prepare , um , response for the

02:05:23.360 --> 02:05:26.490
record . Thank you , Mr Cisneros . Now ,

02:05:27.000 --> 02:05:29.420
excuse me things , Trey . Hand is

02:05:29.420 --> 02:05:31.087
recognized for five minutes .

02:05:33.890 --> 02:05:36.090
Uh , thank you . Thank you , Madam .

02:05:36.090 --> 02:05:38.090
Chair . And in case it wasn't clear

02:05:38.090 --> 02:05:40.640
before , um , I do want to say for the

02:05:40.640 --> 02:05:42.473
record that I'm grateful for the

02:05:42.473 --> 02:05:44.890
leadership of ah , Chairwoman Sphere

02:05:44.900 --> 02:05:47.360
and , um , and the mill purse

02:05:47.370 --> 02:05:50.490
subcommittee . Because back in 2012

02:05:50.490 --> 02:05:53.580
when addressing sexual assault and and

02:05:53.580 --> 02:05:57.290
harassment , uh , reporting , I think

02:05:57.290 --> 02:06:01.290
it led to substantive changes in Indio

02:06:01.290 --> 02:06:03.480
DIY culture . But when it comes to a

02:06:03.480 --> 02:06:05.790
quality injustice , I mean , we are We

02:06:05.790 --> 02:06:08.110
are an impatient nations . So I'm going

02:06:08.110 --> 02:06:10.730
to ask the same question that I asked

02:06:10.740 --> 02:06:14.500
before in terms of convening authority .

02:06:14.500 --> 02:06:16.970
And if you believe convening authority

02:06:16.970 --> 02:06:19.450
should be left to commanders or do you

02:06:19.450 --> 02:06:21.172
think that the current process

02:06:21.172 --> 02:06:23.950
increases the risk of unconscious or

02:06:23.950 --> 02:06:26.210
even overt bias within our military

02:06:26.210 --> 02:06:29.650
justice system ? Mystery . And can you ,

02:06:29.660 --> 02:06:33.280
um , return to the video portion ? We

02:06:33.280 --> 02:06:37.190
don't see you . Oh , I'm sorry . I'm

02:06:37.190 --> 02:06:39.990
sorry . You me ? Now way . See you that .

02:06:41.480 --> 02:06:45.280
Thank you , man . This is General

02:06:45.280 --> 02:06:48.270
PD from the Army . You've probably

02:06:48.270 --> 02:06:50.381
heard me say this before , but I have

02:06:50.381 --> 02:06:52.492
complete confidence in our commanders

02:06:52.492 --> 02:06:56.330
to administer justice fairly and and

02:06:56.340 --> 02:06:58.450
dispassionately , especially at the

02:06:58.450 --> 02:07:01.280
senior levels . I It's not that I don't

02:07:01.280 --> 02:07:03.700
have faith in lawyers . I love my core .

02:07:03.700 --> 02:07:06.033
I love the judge advocates . We recruit ,

02:07:06.033 --> 02:07:07.922
train and educate and nurture and

02:07:07.922 --> 02:07:11.140
culture . But there's no monopoly on

02:07:11.150 --> 02:07:13.800
VIAS or unbiased . There's no monopoly

02:07:13.800 --> 02:07:16.350
on wisdom in the in your legal branches .

02:07:16.720 --> 02:07:18.770
I look to the federal in the state

02:07:18.770 --> 02:07:20.826
sector , and I'm not trying to throw

02:07:20.826 --> 02:07:22.881
anybody under the bus . But that's a

02:07:22.881 --> 02:07:24.992
lawyer controlled system . And and by

02:07:24.992 --> 02:07:26.714
any measure , whether it's the

02:07:26.714 --> 02:07:28.730
Sentencing project or DOJ Bureau of

02:07:28.730 --> 02:07:31.400
Statistics , the racial disparities in

02:07:31.400 --> 02:07:33.430
those systems are well in excess of

02:07:33.430 --> 02:07:35.708
what you find in the military services .

02:07:35.708 --> 02:07:38.150
I don't that's not by way of excuse ,

02:07:38.150 --> 02:07:40.372
but that's a lawyer controlled system .

02:07:40.372 --> 02:07:42.206
So I don't believe the answer is

02:07:42.206 --> 02:07:44.428
lawyers . I believe the answer is a set

02:07:44.428 --> 02:07:46.720
of cross checks and balances between

02:07:46.720 --> 02:07:49.460
law enforcement commanders and lawyers

02:07:49.580 --> 02:07:51.802
looking at each other in the system and

02:07:51.802 --> 02:07:54.160
keeping each other honest . Thank you .

02:07:55.780 --> 02:07:57.750
Yeah , well , anyone else want to

02:07:57.750 --> 02:07:59.917
comment on that ? Writing would have a

02:07:59.917 --> 02:08:00.917
different view .

02:08:04.840 --> 02:08:07.118
Okay , But I'm gonna go to my question ,

02:08:07.118 --> 02:08:09.680
given that you're I'm I'm sure , um ,

02:08:10.070 --> 02:08:12.710
you're all looking inward with a lot of

02:08:12.720 --> 02:08:16.270
urgency . One of the G A o findings

02:08:17.140 --> 02:08:19.170
was that while black and aesthetic

02:08:19.170 --> 02:08:22.260
males were more likely than whites ,

02:08:22.260 --> 02:08:24.850
servicemen and women to be tried in

02:08:25.290 --> 02:08:27.760
general and special courts martial

02:08:27.760 --> 02:08:30.230
across the services race was not a

02:08:30.230 --> 02:08:32.510
statistically significant factor in the

02:08:32.510 --> 02:08:35.170
likelihood of conviction . And so I'm

02:08:35.170 --> 02:08:37.400
wondering , What do you believe that

02:08:37.410 --> 02:08:39.466
data says about the military justice

02:08:39.466 --> 02:08:41.466
system ? Could it indicate that the

02:08:41.466 --> 02:08:43.780
bias is more probable in amongst our

02:08:43.780 --> 02:08:45.780
junior leadership ratings , who are

02:08:45.780 --> 02:08:48.058
recommending service members for N . J .

02:08:48.058 --> 02:08:50.370
P . Or courts martial , that amongst

02:08:50.370 --> 02:08:52.481
the senior leaders who are ultimately

02:08:52.481 --> 02:08:53.481
sentencing them ?

02:08:56.370 --> 02:08:58.590
Congresswoman , I think this goes back

02:08:58.600 --> 02:09:01.410
to the first question , and you can

02:09:01.410 --> 02:09:03.410
really dovetail the answer into the

02:09:03.410 --> 02:09:05.521
first question of what you just asked

02:09:05.521 --> 02:09:08.040
if we when you when you look at what a

02:09:08.040 --> 02:09:10.970
commander does of setting the tone and

02:09:10.970 --> 02:09:13.192
then the commander setting that command

02:09:13.192 --> 02:09:16.220
climate , you and you look at this

02:09:16.220 --> 02:09:18.680
issue and you end you and we think we

02:09:18.680 --> 02:09:20.736
know where the answer is , where the

02:09:20.736 --> 02:09:22.680
targets are , where the targets of

02:09:22.680 --> 02:09:25.800
opportunity are that is left of 15 .

02:09:26.610 --> 02:09:29.040
We know then that where this has to

02:09:29.040 --> 02:09:31.040
happen , where the unconscious bias

02:09:31.040 --> 02:09:32.984
needs to be eliminated , where the

02:09:32.984 --> 02:09:35.151
mentoring and the inclusion happens is

02:09:35.151 --> 02:09:37.920
at first line E five supervisor over

02:09:37.920 --> 02:09:41.730
those if the foreign below chairman

02:09:42.230 --> 02:09:44.119
and when you look at setting that

02:09:44.119 --> 02:09:46.341
command climate , knowing commander has

02:09:46.341 --> 02:09:48.174
to do that and then letting that

02:09:48.174 --> 02:09:50.230
supervisor do that . That's where we

02:09:50.230 --> 02:09:52.452
need to focus the help , the training ,

02:09:52.452 --> 02:09:54.397
the data and everything we need to

02:09:54.397 --> 02:09:54.280
collect .

02:09:58.320 --> 02:10:00.431
Did anybody else want to add anything

02:10:00.431 --> 02:10:02.487
to general work ? Ruggles comments .

02:10:07.730 --> 02:10:11.160
I think , Madam Congresswoman , I think

02:10:11.160 --> 02:10:13.160
from the Marine Corps perspective ,

02:10:13.160 --> 02:10:15.216
there's two pieces thingy . A report

02:10:15.216 --> 02:10:17.271
was pretty clear that all those they

02:10:17.271 --> 02:10:19.580
showed bias in the data they cannot

02:10:19.580 --> 02:10:21.830
conclude unlawful bias because we don't

02:10:22.080 --> 02:10:24.302
fully understand that data . So I think

02:10:24.360 --> 02:10:26.527
Number one , you know , to general PDS

02:10:26.527 --> 02:10:28.693
point , we have to kind of get left of

02:10:28.693 --> 02:10:30.749
the problem and figure out what this

02:10:30.749 --> 02:10:32.749
data exactly means . But second and

02:10:32.749 --> 02:10:34.804
more importantly , in something that

02:10:34.804 --> 02:10:36.860
the common on has made clear is that

02:10:36.860 --> 02:10:38.971
commanders have to get after this and

02:10:38.971 --> 02:10:40.749
setting the tone , training and

02:10:40.749 --> 02:10:42.749
educating their supported personnel

02:10:42.749 --> 02:10:44.527
about the importance of this of

02:10:44.527 --> 02:10:46.749
equality and diversity in the force and

02:10:46.749 --> 02:10:48.693
how that makes us stronger . And I

02:10:48.693 --> 02:10:50.860
think that's something that the common

02:10:50.860 --> 02:10:53.027
on himself has really gotten after and

02:10:53.027 --> 02:10:52.880
that we're taking very seriously in the

02:10:52.880 --> 02:10:56.340
Marine Corps . Well , I appreciate all

02:10:56.340 --> 02:10:58.562
that . I mean , certainly what you want

02:10:58.562 --> 02:11:00.673
to back up the data with , you know ,

02:11:00.673 --> 02:11:02.896
every cause analysis along all of those

02:11:02.896 --> 02:11:05.110
sort of stage gates . And I understand

02:11:05.110 --> 02:11:06.999
that the Air Force is going to be

02:11:06.999 --> 02:11:08.888
completing and on in the survey's

02:11:08.888 --> 02:11:10.888
General walk Brockwell . Will those

02:11:10.888 --> 02:11:12.999
findings of the surveys Will those be

02:11:12.999 --> 02:11:16.590
public ? Yes , Congresswoman . I

02:11:16.590 --> 02:11:19.230
imagine they will be how I'll defer all

02:11:19.230 --> 02:11:21.760
that to the I G . Who is is running it .

02:11:21.770 --> 02:11:23.890
So we do get an independent . Look at

02:11:23.890 --> 02:11:26.720
this . I can't believe those weren't .

02:11:26.730 --> 02:11:28.940
Those results will not be open and

02:11:28.940 --> 02:11:30.710
transparent . All right . Miss

02:11:30.710 --> 02:11:32.960
Trayvon's time is expired . Thank you .

02:11:33.270 --> 02:11:35.310
Will now go to Mr Brown for five

02:11:35.310 --> 02:11:38.840
minutes . Thank you , Madam Chair again .

02:11:38.840 --> 02:11:40.784
I want to thank you in the ranking

02:11:40.784 --> 02:11:42.784
member , a representative jelly for

02:11:42.784 --> 02:11:45.390
allowing wave on this afternoon . I

02:11:45.400 --> 02:11:48.880
want to thank each of our Panelists

02:11:48.880 --> 02:11:51.690
were testifying today One . Thank you

02:11:51.690 --> 02:11:53.801
for your service to our nation and in

02:11:53.801 --> 02:11:56.370
our armed forces . And for your stated

02:11:56.370 --> 02:11:59.750
commitment to end racial disparities in

02:11:59.750 --> 02:12:02.790
our military justice system . We are at

02:12:02.790 --> 02:12:05.260
a difficult time in our nation's

02:12:05.260 --> 02:12:08.390
history . A time when racial injustices

02:12:08.390 --> 02:12:10.930
scene in the violence against black

02:12:10.930 --> 02:12:14.030
Americans by local law enforcement . A

02:12:14.030 --> 02:12:16.810
time when persistent racial disparities

02:12:16.810 --> 02:12:19.810
in health are illuminated by the stark

02:12:19.810 --> 02:12:22.280
contrast we're witnessing in the just

02:12:22.280 --> 02:12:24.610
proportionate prevalence of Kobe 19

02:12:24.610 --> 02:12:26.610
death and infection among black and

02:12:26.610 --> 02:12:29.070
brown Americans a time when almost

02:12:29.080 --> 02:12:31.640
every racial disparity experience in

02:12:31.640 --> 02:12:34.450
this nation in our educational systems

02:12:34.450 --> 02:12:36.560
are criminal systems . Our workforce

02:12:36.760 --> 02:12:38.780
are compounded by this pernicious

02:12:38.780 --> 02:12:41.150
pandemic , and today we're at a

02:12:41.160 --> 02:12:43.327
difficult time in America's military .

02:12:44.080 --> 02:12:47.070
An institution that led this nation in

02:12:47.070 --> 02:12:49.600
racial integration almost 75 years ago

02:12:49.600 --> 02:12:52.220
is now confronted with bone white

02:12:52.220 --> 02:12:54.800
nationalism in our ranks , an

02:12:54.800 --> 02:12:58.040
institution that saw the first African

02:12:58.040 --> 02:13:01.650
American first captain , West 0.40

02:13:01.650 --> 02:13:03.940
years ago , now retired Army General

02:13:03.940 --> 02:13:07.190
Vince Brooks . It only yet it took

02:13:07.190 --> 02:13:10.510
until last week before we could confirm

02:13:10.510 --> 02:13:12.566
our first African American service ,

02:13:12.566 --> 02:13:14.850
Chief General Brown of the Air Force .

02:13:15.200 --> 02:13:18.790
And we still have a military who's 61 4

02:13:18.790 --> 02:13:21.420
star flag officers Onley include two

02:13:21.430 --> 02:13:23.541
Afghan American officers , among them

02:13:24.100 --> 02:13:27.060
an institution that benefited from the

02:13:27.060 --> 02:13:30.710
courageous service of nearly 1000

02:13:30.710 --> 02:13:33.050
pilots during World War Two who

02:13:33.050 --> 02:13:35.530
completed the Tuskegee training program .

02:13:35.630 --> 02:13:38.350
Yet today there are only 446 minority

02:13:38.360 --> 02:13:40.582
fighter or bomber pilots and navigators

02:13:40.582 --> 02:13:43.050
and young forces less than 2% of our

02:13:43.050 --> 02:13:45.530
pilots are African American , an

02:13:45.530 --> 02:13:48.010
institution that after World War Two in

02:13:48.010 --> 02:13:52.010
1950 51 began to operate

02:13:52.020 --> 02:13:55.120
under the UCMJ a , which in many ways

02:13:55.120 --> 02:13:58.630
has been way ahead of the changes , the

02:13:58.630 --> 02:14:00.960
positive changes in the civilian

02:14:00.960 --> 02:14:03.182
criminal justice system in terms of the

02:14:03.182 --> 02:14:05.516
rights of the accused and of defendants .

02:14:05.516 --> 02:14:07.238
Yet today grapples with racial

02:14:07.238 --> 02:14:09.016
disparities in the disciplinary

02:14:09.016 --> 02:14:11.238
treatment of men and women . And you've

02:14:11.238 --> 02:14:13.349
won . That is where we are today , in

02:14:13.349 --> 02:14:15.880
our nation and in our military , and it

02:14:15.890 --> 02:14:18.670
cannot be where we are tomorrow . I

02:14:18.680 --> 02:14:21.140
have work to do , and we need to do it

02:14:21.140 --> 02:14:24.490
now . Gentlemen , I take a lot of stock

02:14:24.500 --> 02:14:26.556
in the work of the Joo and they came

02:14:26.556 --> 02:14:28.389
back . I thought with the with a

02:14:28.389 --> 02:14:30.056
thoughtful report and list of

02:14:30.056 --> 02:14:31.944
recommendations on how we can get

02:14:31.944 --> 02:14:35.460
better . And my question is , what more

02:14:35.460 --> 02:14:38.300
did you need from Congress in order to

02:14:38.310 --> 02:14:41.860
complete your evaluation of the causes

02:14:41.870 --> 02:14:44.070
of any disparities in the military

02:14:44.070 --> 02:14:47.900
justice system ? And are you consulting

02:14:47.910 --> 02:14:51.750
any outside resource Is that

02:14:51.750 --> 02:14:55.100
have expertise in this area ? In order

02:14:55.110 --> 02:14:57.320
to complete this evaluation ,

02:15:01.640 --> 02:15:03.807
we start with the army will go down in

02:15:03.807 --> 02:15:06.084
the Air Force , and I am a PT this man .

02:15:06.084 --> 02:15:08.307
Think , Congressman Brad , thank you so

02:15:08.307 --> 02:15:10.307
much for the question as to what we

02:15:10.307 --> 02:15:12.251
need from Congress . I think a Zai

02:15:12.251 --> 02:15:14.251
mentioned my statement that Karen ,

02:15:14.251 --> 02:15:16.418
attention the desire , the passion you

02:15:16.418 --> 02:15:18.529
bring to these issues to help us help

02:15:18.529 --> 02:15:20.807
ourselves to see ourselves as critical .

02:15:20.807 --> 02:15:23.210
So I think that we'll continue . I know

02:15:23.210 --> 02:15:25.220
it will . And I want you to know

02:15:25.220 --> 02:15:27.442
personally , I welcome it , and so does

02:15:27.442 --> 02:15:29.430
the army leadership with respect

02:15:29.430 --> 02:15:31.430
outside . Resource is , sir , where

02:15:31.430 --> 02:15:33.430
were sort of within with respect to

02:15:33.430 --> 02:15:35.541
cause ality . We're in the very early

02:15:35.541 --> 02:15:37.652
stages of figuring out what can cause

02:15:37.652 --> 02:15:40.660
this . So we're developing a framework ?

02:15:40.740 --> 02:15:42.820
Well , this this very week and last

02:15:42.820 --> 02:15:45.100
week to figure that out , I fully

02:15:45.100 --> 02:15:47.280
expect that that will include outside

02:15:47.290 --> 02:15:49.580
assistance . Thank you , sir . Thank

02:15:49.580 --> 02:15:53.330
you . Abrahamic . Sir . I

02:15:53.330 --> 02:15:56.890
think Section 5 40 i of the Indy A was

02:15:56.900 --> 02:15:58.956
excellent road map . I think at that

02:15:58.956 --> 02:16:01.640
point was emphasized by the witness

02:16:01.640 --> 02:16:05.450
from the G a . O . I think the

02:16:05.460 --> 02:16:08.820
focus on data collection and then solid

02:16:08.820 --> 02:16:11.700
assessment understanding and then what

02:16:11.700 --> 02:16:13.811
to do about the disparities is is the

02:16:13.811 --> 02:16:16.190
right way ahead . I agree with General

02:16:16.190 --> 02:16:20.120
PD on outside assistance . I think that

02:16:20.120 --> 02:16:22.287
is going to be important . This Look ,

02:16:22.287 --> 02:16:24.509
this look be deliberate . That would be

02:16:24.509 --> 02:16:26.750
thoughtful . Um , and it's not gonna be

02:16:26.750 --> 02:16:28.590
over quick . We're gonna have to

02:16:28.590 --> 02:16:30.812
continue this effort . And that's where

02:16:30.812 --> 02:16:32.979
I think the outside resource is convey

02:16:32.979 --> 02:16:34.146
incredibly helpful .

02:16:37.200 --> 02:16:40.650
General Rockwell . Sir , I I have

02:16:41.290 --> 02:16:43.990
I have a lot of faith in what r i g

02:16:43.990 --> 02:16:46.840
independent reviews going to do . Ah ,

02:16:47.040 --> 02:16:49.190
I have a lot of faith that they're

02:16:49.190 --> 02:16:51.079
gonna look at this internally and

02:16:51.079 --> 02:16:53.710
holistically . I also have ah , a lot

02:16:53.710 --> 02:16:57.490
of faith in our more manpower and

02:16:57.490 --> 02:17:00.450
reserve in a one team who's leading the

02:17:00.450 --> 02:17:02.450
effort now , You asked the question

02:17:02.450 --> 02:17:04.561
about what kind of outside help we're

02:17:04.561 --> 02:17:07.540
getting , Uh , that that

02:17:08.740 --> 02:17:11.800
that man power and personnel team is

02:17:11.800 --> 02:17:14.850
getting a lot of outside help .

02:17:15.400 --> 02:17:17.460
Eso I have . I have quite a bit of

02:17:17.460 --> 02:17:20.230
faith in that to see what else can we

02:17:20.230 --> 02:17:22.920
do to get to get to this elusive

02:17:22.930 --> 02:17:26.120
solution set here , General ? Actually ,

02:17:27.960 --> 02:17:30.170
Mr Congressman , I don't believe that

02:17:30.170 --> 02:17:31.948
this time we need any help from

02:17:31.948 --> 02:17:33.726
Congress , but I appreciate the

02:17:33.726 --> 02:17:35.837
opportunity to testify here . We just

02:17:35.837 --> 02:17:38.059
have a lot of work to do . We just have

02:17:38.059 --> 02:17:40.226
to get after this that we realize that

02:17:40.226 --> 02:17:42.392
we're at the beginning . We're looking

02:17:42.392 --> 02:17:44.614
at Dad . I was trying to understand the

02:17:44.614 --> 02:17:46.726
data , but there's a lot of hard work

02:17:46.726 --> 02:17:48.726
that has to be done . And again , I

02:17:48.726 --> 02:17:50.948
keep , you know , you know , the common

02:17:50.948 --> 02:17:50.940
on is my boss . I keep mentioning him

02:17:50.940 --> 02:17:53.051
because he has made this an important

02:17:53.051 --> 02:17:55.410
plank in his competency , and he's

02:17:55.410 --> 02:17:57.466
driving it . And I think that that's

02:17:57.466 --> 02:17:59.577
what we need throughout every echelon

02:17:59.577 --> 02:18:01.688
of the Marine Corps . Commanders need

02:18:01.688 --> 02:18:03.743
to drive this . They need to make it

02:18:03.743 --> 02:18:05.743
important . And I think that starts

02:18:05.743 --> 02:18:07.966
thes candidate open conversations about

02:18:07.966 --> 02:18:10.188
how we get after this . And that's what

02:18:10.188 --> 02:18:12.410
the Marine Corps is doing . Thank you ,

02:18:12.410 --> 02:18:15.560
madam Chair . Thank you , Mr Brown . Mr .

02:18:15.560 --> 02:18:17.970
Kelly , you have any final words ? All

02:18:17.971 --> 02:18:20.450
right , generals and admirals . Thank

02:18:20.450 --> 02:18:22.394
you so much for your participation

02:18:22.394 --> 02:18:25.430
today and for your commitment to the

02:18:25.430 --> 02:18:28.300
rule of law . Let me just end with a

02:18:28.300 --> 02:18:31.720
few comments . 5 40 I was put in the nd

02:18:31.720 --> 02:18:34.390
a Not by you , not at your request ,

02:18:35.020 --> 02:18:38.480
but Congress is request . So while

02:18:38.480 --> 02:18:41.150
you're relying on that now too ,

02:18:42.620 --> 02:18:44.620
recognize that there was work to be

02:18:44.620 --> 02:18:47.460
done . It would have been a whole lot

02:18:47.650 --> 02:18:49.860
better if it had come from you .

02:18:51.180 --> 02:18:53.291
General ECI . You've said it a number

02:18:53.291 --> 02:18:55.513
of times . It starts at the top and you

02:18:55.513 --> 02:18:59.060
are right . And I hope you convey to

02:18:59.070 --> 02:19:03.050
all of your , um , chiefs of

02:19:03.050 --> 02:19:06.180
staff how critical this is to the

02:19:06.181 --> 02:19:08.600
Congress of the United States . General

02:19:08.600 --> 02:19:11.470
PTU said that much like sexual assault

02:19:11.470 --> 02:19:13.692
and sexual harassment in the military ,

02:19:13.840 --> 02:19:17.590
we have to focus on this with the same

02:19:17.590 --> 02:19:19.850
laser focus that we have provided for

02:19:19.850 --> 02:19:22.300
that issue . And I agree with you . Um ,

02:19:22.450 --> 02:19:25.930
we are at a transformational point

02:19:25.940 --> 02:19:29.220
in this country civil , civilian

02:19:29.521 --> 02:19:32.660
and military wise , and

02:19:33.500 --> 02:19:36.870
I think that there is a lot of work to

02:19:36.870 --> 02:19:39.530
dio . There's a lot of data that

02:19:40.920 --> 02:19:44.920
but to make sure it is across all of

02:19:44.920 --> 02:19:46.950
the services and that there is

02:19:46.950 --> 02:19:50.500
transparency , I

02:19:50.500 --> 02:19:53.410
hope that we don't have to have another

02:19:53.420 --> 02:19:57.200
hearing where we have outside groups

02:19:57.200 --> 02:19:59.256
coming to us and saying we can't get

02:19:59.256 --> 02:20:02.550
the information G a o in a number of

02:20:02.550 --> 02:20:04.772
circumstances said she couldn't get the

02:20:04.772 --> 02:20:08.060
information . We have to be forthcoming

02:20:08.310 --> 02:20:10.421
to the American people . We intend to

02:20:10.421 --> 02:20:12.590
continue this work . We will have you

02:20:12.590 --> 02:20:15.300
back to see how you're doing and hopes

02:20:15.300 --> 02:20:17.356
that you're going to be making great

02:20:17.356 --> 02:20:21.270
strides in dealing with the anti racism

02:20:21.279 --> 02:20:25.120
that we have now have to in view in

02:20:25.370 --> 02:20:27.740
society . Generally with that , we

02:20:27.740 --> 02:20:31.250
stand adjourned no .